Chaos Codex Thoughts

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Chaos Codex Thoughts

Postby elrodogg » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:13 am

The vanilla chaos marine entry is a good buy. Particularly if you go nurgle or slaanesh as those are how you get more durable troops.

Cultists are ok but really need a fearless character leading them. A khorne lord with the axe of whatever comes to mind. Caveat is if they are plague zombies.

cult troops are all decent but expensive. Mono God build armies have potential. Especially slaanesh and nurgle. The spell that makes noise marine weapons stronger can be brutal. The problem for them is anti tank and anti flyer... Buy new kits.
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Re: Chaos Codex Thoughts

Postby WickerNipple » Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:10 am

It's an interesting, varied and complex codex that's going to take a lot of hashing out, me thinks. On the surface all the core elements are pretty good, but I can't help feeling that a lot of the codex is every so slightly overpriced ~ and it's lacking the things I loved about my Chaos army from the good ole 3.5 days, so there isn't much grabbing me and saying Play This Now!

Marines can be basic and cheap but have good upgrade options. They do not have the sheer efficiency SW or GK can muster, but all of the marks and icons and the like look viable to me ~ you can have tough or fast or fighty for a handful of points... Tz is the only mark that doesn't hold up for basic troops and whose icon is quite wishy-washy.

Cultists are a bit redundant given the allies system (guard are simply better and better priced), but there's a role for big cultist squads made fearless, for sure, or maybe if you had other ideas for allies.

Lack of rules for all the Legions is a huge, massive, sad-making let down ~ but the predictable Legions they did give us are all interesting options. I've never been a world eater fan and am not a cc fan this edition at all, but you can't ignore the khorne fuckers and they're reasonably priced. 1k sons look quite right, even if the Tz basic marines are wrong. Noise marines are nasty as fuck but expensive as always. Plague Marines are probably best left small 5 man squads with "normal" nurgle marked marines making up the brunt of the force, but you might be able to do the old MSU Plague Marine lists and pull it off.

Lvl 3 psykers are ridiculously, laughably cheap - but no Divination, and no psychic defense at all. The psyker lores are solid.

The new stuff is certainly designed to sell kits, but is also surprisingly restrained in unexpected ways. Hades Autocannons are prehaps the best damn new gun in the game, but you're very limited as to who can get it, and they all have BS3. The Maulerfiend is cheap-ish, fast, terrifying and a must kill, but it can easily suffer from bad dice and it's just a melta away from being a non-issue. The forgefield throws a heckuva lot of Hades, but is pretty expensive. The freakin Space Dragon is the only new buy-this-now kit that really worries me: the flamer on that thing could completely be a game changer.

After all the talk of Flakk Havoks, I'm not that impressed with what you get for the price. You'll want em if the other guy has three freakin space dragons though. Min Autocannon Havoks look like the best choice there imo.

Special characters are all brutal, as to be expected, and the normal characters use the older Wargear method, which means you can really layer them down in nasty if you want to.

Chosen are a real winner of a unit with five special weapons - there's definite potential there with Abba making them score.

Some weird bits and bobs ~ the change to combi-bolters is what it should be, t6 bikes could be quite interesting, preds are more expensive for the basic ones but weirdly cheaper for lascannon ones - not sure what to make of that. Dreads can't really compete with the fiend things and seem out of place now. (Also, renaming them was dumb.) Defilier is wild, but way too overpriced for an AV12 hull. There's no way to reliably make the sneaky marines or stealthy marines that made my heart aflutter. No dreadclaws. :(

The codex also plunges chaos further down the demon-spawny direction, which really leaves out the various traitor legions that rebelled while still resisting much of that nonsense. There are no proud but untainted rebels remaining in this codex, or even a hint that's a direction they'd consider again.

So yeah: lots of options, but lots of missed opportunities, too. For all its new bells and whistles it still doesn't hold a candle to the 3.5 book we all knew and loved. It's a good list, I think. But it somehow feels a bit too toy-heavy and gimmicky to me, and I again I can't help but feel you pay just a touch too much for your toys and gimmicks.

Fantastic ally potential, if nothing else.
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Re: Chaos Codex Thoughts

Postby elrodogg » Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:26 am

The lack of alternative deployment is a letdown. I was hoping at least chosen would get infiltrate or outflank or whatever. The lack of drops is a total shame. They appear in the book's fluff but not the list. Outside of termies the army very linear.
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Re: Chaos Codex Thoughts

Postby WickerNipple » Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:28 am

There's also just weird options. No one used Raptors before, who thought SuperRaptors would be the solution? They're kinda an interesting idea with the blind, but the range is so short and the test so unreliable it ain't gonna save their amazingly overpriced hides.
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Re: Chaos Codex Thoughts

Postby elrodogg » Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:58 am

That said.. Vanilla Raptors are only 17 pts each. Bikes are 20. Both are very affordable. unfortunately there seems to be no way to make these choices troops.
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Re: Chaos Codex Thoughts

Postby elrodogg » Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:14 pm

What is interesting is that we see more and more marine lists that are spamming lots of basic infantry. That makes thousand sons a much more appealing choice.

How does mark of tzeentch interact with deny the witch? Is that an invul save? If so, it makes them have the best psychic defense in the book
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Re: Chaos Codex Thoughts

Postby WickerNipple » Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:09 pm

I'd have to read the exact wording, but I don't think that works.

Regardless, psychic defense is much more about stopping other people's buffs and divinations and less about stopping damage.
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Re: Chaos Codex Thoughts

Postby elrodogg » Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:28 pm

In a book that has none at all....
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Chaos Codex Thoughts

Postby elrodogg » Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:22 am

Can a demon weapon work with a ccw for +1 as well as the d6 demon weapon attacks?
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Re: Chaos Codex Thoughts

Postby deFl0 » Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:53 am

Pete's chaos review:

So I've been banging on lists for a week now so this is what I think:

HQs:

Typhus - Yes. Fearless, tough mini mobs are great for troops. I think RAW you can only take them in squads of 10 though... But you if you take all the other good shooty stuff like the shooty hell brutes, havoks, and dragons I think this list gets strong. (Note: I might still opt for rhinos though)

Arihman - Think scouting big, fearless hth units and buffing them with psychics. So you roll on a table trying to get a power, if you don't like it default to primarus watchfire. Then roll on another table. Anyway, the initial thoughts were scouting units of khorne berserkers forward, but that's kinda childs play. I think the big play is scouting forward 120 orks with characters... then again the re roll chrage range is really tempting.

Huron - Think scouting. He opens up a lot of really powerful options. (note: if you go second you can charge first turn!!!!!!!)

Sorcerers - This is your check box I have a cheap HQ. Honestly I'm not imperssed with them beyond that although I do feel the allure of slaanesh.

Chaos lords - You will see these in a lot of lists just to unlock troops. (not they don't unlock elites if they are not the parent list, which is a bummer). That said, these guys are beasts. Think tooled up khorn lord on jugger with a big unit of spawn! SCARY SCARY SCARY. Nurlge lords on bikes are intersting to. Also don't discount the murder sword. Being +1 VP for killing their warlord is a huge boon that chaos can have for cheap.

Abby - Soooo good, but I have a tough time actually buidling a list I like with him... Chosen have all the potential in the world, but god does that list get expensive quick. I'm sure Andy will break it and make me eat my words on this one :)

Deamon prince with black mace makes it AP2... which is disgusting.

Not really impressed with anything Else HQ....

Elites:

Hell brutes - if you make them shooty they can be good rhino hunters

Termies - Solid termicide. I actually thing that now they can take power axes they got a lot better. Mark of tzeentch seems good hear too. And always max out on combi weapons!!!!

Troops:

Noise marines: Are great. I kinda like 10 in a rhino with 2 sonic blasters and doom siren. An army built around that concept scares me.

Plague marines: Ugh... Maybe? Not being able to chrage with PMs out of a vehicle really hurts. They are good because the can jump into hth and be gods and then tie up units that pop them like IG. Now that they don't really have that control they are of reduced value. UNLESS - EPIDEMIUS STAYS AS IS AND THEN THEY ARE GODS

Chosen: Maybe in big squads bristling with special weapons...

Berskers: Are mean. They can thrash light transports have a huge charge range and are cheap enough to use. Take the banner.

Other troops... Not really impressed. I can get better ally troops.

Fast:

Dragons: targetting two units a turn is what makes these over the top useful.

Spawn: Actually kinda amazing. I like them with MON, but truly they are really good as a character bunker as well.

Raptors: 20 man jump squads are really good. Especially at that price. That said, if you want to crank up the cheese, like mad doc and mark of tzeentch.

mauler fiend: Maybe? But list specific

Bikes: Are really good now, I think they get significantly better with character. Fearless is really important to a squad like bikes, but man did they get cheap!!!!!

HVY:

daemon engine guy: forgot his name! Teh ecto plasma shots and bale cannon are great. Freightening unit, but it's not cheap and it's BS3.

HAvoks: This is my personal choice. 4 autocannon is a squad is filthy cheap and hugely disruptive. Flack missile... Ugh... I don't know. I'm still fighting slier with fliers...

vindicators: I think they are overlooked, but really quite good in a chaos list. They definitely have bubble wrap units aplenty.

Defilers: I think they are better than people think... The AV 12 is kinda iffy, but man killing 3 of these is a lot of work, so if you mix with hell brutes, dragons and units in rhinos, I think you start getting to a level of AV 12 hull points which is unmanageable for your opponent. The defilers become low on the priority if you push forward with rhinos bristling with assault weapons... I can see this working.

Olits: I'm of the opinion MON is necesary. Too many S8 weapons out there... They are good but expensive. My personal play style leans toward cheaper units with narrower goals.

Beyond that I don't really see much else in the codex I like.

Also allies are really important. The best lists I've come up with for CSMs include them.
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