Orks in Mega Armor + Vehicles

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Re: Orks in Mega Armor + Vehicles

Postby -Thrax » Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:49 am

Quote:
Across the board they have all been superceded by the new FAQs.


This is incredibly untrue. Not only has there been no directive to ignore the CA clarifications, but there is a lot of info in CA (with respect to Orks and DA, for instance) that is not touched in the FAQs. The above discussion about Orks and transports is just one of these. If you can find something in GW rules that says "the FAQ trumps CA for any pre 4th-ed codex", I'll buy it. Similarly, no such directive exists within the FAQ itself (unless you buy the weirdly-worded introduction). Otherwise, no way.

Ork FAQ: us.games-workshop.com/gam...q_v4-0.pdf

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Re: Orks in Mega Armor + Vehicles

Postby -megaman001 » Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:04 am

That's exactly the part of this whole problem I have an issue with. As I am sure you all know, there are literally pounds, upon pounds, upon pounds of text out there.

Warhammer 40k has the base rule book, codexes, special campaign codexes which oftentimes supercede the original codexes. Then, you have codexes that have not been updated in the last seven years. On top of that, you have particular Forge World publications, White Dwarf Publications, FAQs (that are horribly short - look at the Ork one, three pages for something that is an edition behind?). Then, finally, you have 'official errata' of Chapter Approved - three years of 2002, 2003, and 2004 - none of which apply to the current rule set!

The majority of these texts are not even being published today - the last copies being only available via the Amazon.com marketplace or eBay.

It would be one thing if GW had a central webpage - some kind of grand old list declaring "This is legal, this is not." - but you don't. What you do have is literally a decade worth of 'semi-legal' material and no real way to trace what sections have been replaced by what.

As a test - I called the Games Workshop rules hotline three times today, all with this question (1-800-394-4263).

I recieved three different responses. One declared that anything that is written for 3rd Edition (with the exception of race codexes) is no longer to be used. Another told me that previous sources are legal unless there has been an official publication that contradicts that - in which you assume the most recent publication is correct. The last gentleman told me that you only apply third edition rule sets to races who have third edition codexes.

So, yeah, there is some serious work to be done.
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Re: Orks in Mega Armor + Vehicles

Postby -Thrax » Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:45 am

Quote:
The last gentleman told me that you only apply third edition rule sets to races who have third edition codexes.


This is the part where you tell me you're joking, and you made all that up, because that's the funniest shit I've ever heard. :lol

I'd love to hear the argument at the GT where the Blood Angels dude says he can charge out of his Rhinos because his is a 3rd ed.-era codex.

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Re: Orks in Mega Armor + Vehicles

Postby -megaman001 » Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:21 am

No, that's exactly what happened. Three completely different responses depending on who answered the phone.
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Re: Orks in Mega Armor + Vehicles

Postby -The Fabulous Orcboy » Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:25 pm

Bah.

Bah, I say.

WOTC solved this 'problem' literally YEARS ago by hiring someone whose job description included the task of "Rules Clarification" -- which became a regular monthly column in their gaming magazine ('Sage Advice') with all clarifications posted and updated regularly on their website.

This is something which costs exceedingly little to fund, can readily be mixed in with other editorial/writing tasks, and would dramatically improve customer satisfaction.

For a time a few years ago, I had high hopes that either Pete Haines or Tim Huckelberry would take on this task full-time as an official appointment, but both times the company dropped the ball..
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Re: Orks in Mega Armor + Vehicles

Postby savaughn » Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:16 am

>>This is incredibly untrue. Not only has there been no directive to ignore the CA clarifications, but there is a lot of info in CA (with respect to Orks and DA, for instance) that is not touched in the FAQs.

No directive to ignore ...

There is no directive to use. I don't need a directive to ignore previous editions of the rules. The chapter approved rules are 3rd edition. Period. Hell, the book actually prints the TRIAL rules that were completely rewritten for 4th edition. The only thing that is even remotely valid in the book is the otherwise unprinted rules lists.

And you're on extremely shakey ground trying to prove that even those are legal in 4th edition.
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Re: Orks in Mega Armor + Vehicles

Postby -Thrax » Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:57 am

Quote:
The chapter approved rules are 3rd edition.


This is a narrow interpretation that, if forced, means that any non-3rd ed codex is SOL with respect to the clarifications -- effectively declaring rules clarifications null and void in favor of subsequent ones.

Why is there this insistence that CA is ONLY relevant to 3rd ed rules, when dealing with the clarifications that concern 3rd ed codices? It's baffling. It came out during 3rd ed, obviously. But the CODICES themselves clearly operate outside the production schedule of rules editions. Forcing the relevance of rules clarifications for codices based on their being published in proximity to rulebooks would effectively mean that any non-4th codex would be invalid! Which is preposterous.

Until a 4th ed codex comes out to clarify these issues (and create new problems, obviously), and in the absence of a directive to overrule previous clarifications, the clarifications between CA and FAQ (again, for NON-4th-Ed-CODICES) must be seen as cumulative, rather than superseding one another.

In any case, most of this is increasingly irrelevant. The majority of CA issues that people are interested in are the "extra" armies, like Kroot Mercs and Feral Orks, and they've been released through PDF FAQ outside of CA books. Which is the first smart move GW has done with their electronic formatting in a godamn long while.

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Re: Orks in Mega Armor + Vehicles

Postby -megaman001 » Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:14 am

So, I called GW again to see what the newest response was.

This time I got Mark, who told me that you always go by the last published rule unless specifically overruled by newer text. I pointed out that several books are not available in current circulation - he told me that didn't matter and for example, people still use rules from Index Astartes (whatever that is?) in current play.

I have to admit, this entire attitude baffles me. I don't think I've ever played any other game (roleplaying in particular) that states that older rules are still viable from edition to edition - unless specifically overwritten. All this does is lead to a clogged system of archaic rules that only the elite few who have been gaming for a few decades are aware of.

And GW wonders why stock is going down and not many new gamers are getting involved.
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Re: Orks in Mega Armor + Vehicles

Postby The Gunslinger » Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:42 am

Solution: don't field ork in mega-armor in a trukk! ;) Seriously though, if the CA book said that they count as 1 space each in open-topped vehicles, then there's your answer. Even if you don't believe that any CA book is valid, and insist on using the codex & FAQ v4.0, neither of them clarify how many spaces they take up, so you can safely assume 1 space each.

If there are players that still give you problems, then just field a battlewagon. :D
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Re: Orks in Mega Armor + Vehicles

Postby -Thrax » Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:42 am

Quote:
This time I got Mark, who told me that you always go by the last published rule unless specifically overruled by newer text.


Yes.

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