Bioplasma attacks - apparently, they rend?

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Re: Bioplasma attacks - apparently, they rend?

Postby mauleed » Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:19 am

Except Ed wouldn't even try to take pods in a non-standard mission.
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Re: Bioplasma attacks - apparently, they rend?

Postby subversive » Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:03 am

AWL: the 4th ed version of the 'Nids book gives the rule as such (italics my own notes):

"Rending claws:
[fluffy bit that precedes most rules in GW products and is usually completely useless in determining the actual rule:]
Rending claws are usually short and powerful, tipped with diamond hard spikes or talons. The are quite capable of crushing plasteel and ripping through the thickest armor with their vice-like grip.
[Then, the actual rule:]
Tyranids with rending claws gain the Rending ability for all their close combat attacks. See page 46 of the WArhammer 40,000 rulebook."

The RAW argument goes:
Premise 1: Tyranids with rending claws gain the Rending ability for all their close combat attacks.
Premise 2: Bio-Plasma is a close combat attack.
Conclusion: Bio-Plasma + Rending Claws = Rending Bio-Plasma.

The RAW argument ignores the fluffy bit and cuts straight to the rule. My beef with this is that in most cases, the fluffy bit is useless and the rule is what matters. In this case though, it clearly talks about what type of weapon (claw) is modified by the biomorph, but then goes on to make a sweeping rule about all close combat attacks, which happens to include the (very different) bio-plasma.

Edited to include Ordnance explanation:
It's not a question of knowing where to find the rule. That's not the problem. Go back and re-read the rules and tell me where it says how to determine who is hit.

More specifically, look at the rule for blast weapons (carefully noting the second paragraph where it says "this section covers blast weapons fired by a non-ordnance weapon only."), and THEN look at the ordnance rules. The whole part where they talk about what is hit under the template is completely missing. If you use the RAW, you place the template, it deviates, and then... uhh... what next?

In the "blast" section, it tells us "Models whose bases are partially covered... yadda yadda yadda," but that section SPECIFICALLY TELLS US NOT TO USE IT FOR ORDNANCE! Nothing similar appears in the Ordnance section, so you place the template, all the models under it heave a sigh of relief that they're saved due to lack of rules to hit them, and you move on. Another stroke of brilliance by GW
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Re: Bioplasma attacks - apparently, they rend?

Postby -Dresnar » Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:24 am

"Except Ed wouldn't even try to take pods in a non-standard mission"

Ehh? What tournaments you playin in?
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Re: Bioplasma attacks - apparently, they rend?

Postby -dumbuket » Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:39 am

dicedog's pretty well summarized the argument

yeah, the fluffy stuff seems to describe bioplasma as magic bug vomit or something and it shouldn't by any stretch rend. But fluff don't make rules, or there'd be something to the zoanthropes "awesome psychic powers", and not just a lot of overpriced lameness

I'm going to play it this way: if someone tries to tank shock my big pile of gaunts in close combat, then my bioplasma starts rending and doesn't stop until my next game.
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Re: Bioplasma attacks - apparently, they rend?

Postby Amazonwarlord » Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:29 am

OK, well Bioplasma is a special attack due to having that biomorph. At double the intiative I might add. It presumes a lot to assume you could add rending to that.

Quote:
Edited to include Ordnance explanation:
It's not a question of knowing where to find the rule. That's not the problem. Go back and re-read the rules and tell me where it says how to determine who is hit.


OK, I give
"I have not failed, I've just found ten thousand ways that won't work." – Thomas Edison
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Re: Bioplasma attacks - apparently, they rend?

Postby savaughn » Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:46 pm

"Rending claws are usually short and powerful, tipped with diamond hard spikes or talons. The are quite capable of crushing plasteel and ripping through the thickest armor with their vice-like grip."

Absolutely the case. Rending claws ARE USUALLY...

In the case of BioPlasm, they aren't. Exactly what they are (claws that glow with bioplasmic energy, a bio-plasmic spit that is somehow sharpened to an edge, whatever) isn't defined. You can call this a modelling opportunity if you like.

It's not a case of ignoring the fluff. It's a case of, you know, reading all of the words. Or, in some cases, not reading all the words and throwing a tantrum and threating to zero people's soft scores because the rules don't quite work the way you want. C'est la vie.

In this instance, RAW is trivial to follow. There's far more out there more deserving of having a snit thrown about it than this one.
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Re: Bioplasma attacks - apparently, they rend?

Postby mauleed » Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:13 pm

Quote:
Ordnance covered on page 29. Overlooked section of the book but there are rules in there .. LOL


Sure, there are ordnance rules. But tell me what line in them tells you how many models you hit? There isn't even verbage to tell you models under the marker are hit, let alone those partially under are hit on a 4+.

So you can technically shoot them all you like, and then scatter per those rules, but then nothing actually happens, because you haven't hit anything.
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Re: Bioplasma attacks - apparently, they rend?

Postby subversive » Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:47 pm

@ Savaughn
Quote:
It's a case of, you know, reading all of the words.

No, I think it's a case of the lack of clarity produced when GW throws words in there don't really mean anything in terms of the rules. The fact that this stuff comes up time and again indicates that there are (at least) two distinct types of players: the people who see a distinction between fluff and rules and ignore the fluff, and the people who try to incorporate the fluff as written into their game play and are a little looser with the rules. Looking down your nose at one type of player is snobby and obnoxious. Everyone is in the hobby for their own reasons and enjoyment. Unfortunately, the tournament environment seems to draw a lot of very impassioned people who feel strongly about their views, and a lot of people who would rather be right than let their opponent enjoy the game.

The RAW for most tournament soft scoring is pretty grey about how to score sports. It usually involves such hard to pin down language as "enjoyment" or "amicable resolution." So by the letter of the rule, if someone won't even acknowledge the other side's view and is a rules lawyer to the point of affecting the enjoyment of the game, one is obliged (according to RAW) to ding his opponent's sports score.The interpretation that you presented was, in my opinion, a well thought out justification for rending bio-plasma, and I'd be happy to let it go. The other end of the spectrum is the "shut up, fluff-boy, that's the rule, everything else is BS" type of argument that is counter productive to an enjoyable game (at least for one party). It's not about the actual rule resolution that's reached, it's about the attitude you bring to the game. One attitude will get you full sports marks, the other will get you zeroed, according to the RAW in most tournaments
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Re: Bioplasma attacks - apparently, they rend?

Postby mauleed » Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:53 pm

I still fail to comprehend how someone can say "Sure, the rule says that, but the fluff says I can do whatever I want regardless of that" and then claim that their opinion should be respected.

And again, this stuff only matters when an important game will be decided by how the situation is played. And if you want an important situation played contrary to the actual rules, then clearly you're a bad sport and bad sportsmanship is never deserving of respect.
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Re: Bioplasma attacks - apparently, they rend?

Postby -Thrax » Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:32 pm

@ Subversive: what is the precise wording of Bioplasma? Is it called a CC attack in the rule?

If so, and the unit also has rending, then Bioplasma is rending. Seems pretty clear to me. The presence of the word "usually" does not trump the sentence "Tyranids with rending claws gain the Rending ability for all their close combat attacks."

ALL.

This is assuming the wording is as above.

T
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