Slaanesh Assault Havocs

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Re: Slaanesh Assault Havocs

Postby mauleed » Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:15 pm

Technically, (and I'd never, ever consider trying this), the doom siren lets you attack at inititive order even regardless of weapon.

So you strike at I4 with your powerfist.
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Re: Slaanesh Assault Havocs

Postby -scottfleming » Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:35 pm

Actually, the main rule book says the powerfist strikes at initiative 1 regardless of cover, special wargear, special rules, etc. It is listed under the weapons entry.
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Re: Slaanesh Assault Havocs

Postby mauleed » Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:34 pm

Yes, but the doom siren says you strike at I order regardless of the weapon. So it specifically trumps the powerfist's rule.
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Re: Slaanesh Assault Havocs

Postby subversive » Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:48 pm

no, not if you read the RAW interpretation. If your powerfist makes you I 1, you strike at I 1. It doesn't say "negates any modifiers to initiative." It says:

"in close combat a model with a doom siren will always strike in initiative sequence, even if attacking enemy in cover as the waves of sonic energy confuse and repel them. Enemy who strike first regardless of initiative are unaffected."

The problem is that the rule was written in early 3rd ed., when there was still "strikes first" and "strikes last" verbiage. That was thrown out in favor of "strikes at I10" and "strikes at I1." ALL models now strike in initiative sequence. Being in cover modifies your initiative. So your power fist still strikes at I1, and your models in cover still strike at I10.

So either: the doom siren is a useless piece of equipment in 4th ed (except that it's a flamer that doesn't prevent you from taking 2 assault weapons), OR it needs to be modified so that it negates bonuses to initiative from cover
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Re: Slaanesh Assault Havocs

Postby -scottfleming » Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:55 pm

@Ed
Yes but the powerfist rules say it specifically negates rules from wargear, i.e. the doomsiren. I guess it is an argument of special codex rules trumping general rules. I think we both agree it is too big of a grey area to use. If only we had something like a FAQ to clear thesethings up...:rolleyes

@subversive
The doomsire is still useful for attacking troops in cover - better (in most cases) than frag grenades because you strike at initiative as opposed to everyone at I 10.
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Re: Slaanesh Assault Havocs

Postby subversive » Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:04 am

I agree that the spirit of the rule is exactly as you said, that you ignore the initiative bonus for cover (similar to how plasma grenades were updated), and that this was an oversight. But someone who wanted to be a real stickler could say that attacking at I 10 because of cover is still attacking in initiative order. Again, the RAW for the doom siren do not change anyone's initiative. Personally, I would not play this way, but the grey area exists
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Re: Slaanesh Assault Havocs

Postby subversive » Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:16 am

Also: frag grenades vs. doom siren, according to RAW:

Frag grenades = I 10 when attacking troops in cover.
Warp scream = Models attacking unit with Warp scream are -1 I.
Slaaneshi marines = I 10
Assaultees in cover = I 9
Slaaneshi marines go first
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Re: Slaanesh Assault Havocs

Postby -Thrax » Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:28 am

That seems right to me.

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Re: Slaanesh Assault Havocs

Postby Flavius Infernus » Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:58 am

As written right now it can't be determined for sure exactly what the rules say about doom sirens and initiative.

The powerfist versus doom siren thing is an outright contradiction. One rule says one thing in one place, another rule in another place says something else. It can't be resolved logically.

The third printing of the codex says that doom sirens strike first regardless of weapons or cover. But it doesn't say that they strike first regardless of initiative. It could mean that, but it's not possible to determine for sure exactly what it means.

Most ppl play it that the doom siren forces opponents in cover to attack in initiative order regardless of cover and that power fists still go last. Gut these are just popular tendencies and not verifiable from the rules as written, because the meaning of the rules as written can't be determined for sure.
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Re: Slaanesh Assault Havocs

Postby subversive » Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:27 pm

Wacky... I wonder what printing I have. Well, if that's the most current printing's wording here's how to resolve it:

Weapons don't "strike first" anymore in 4th ed, they strike at I 10. Modify Doom siren to "strikes at I 10"
Anyone else striking at I 10 now strikes at I 9 due to Warp Scream.

Now Doom Siren models correctly strike first. AND the properly interact with Power Gloves: Power Gloves strike at I 1 regardless of any other rule
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