Biel tan Fish of death?

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Biel tan Fish of death?

Postby -FarseerVinnie » Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:32 am

Though I guess you'd have to call it Snake of death, but the principle is the same.

Here's my thoughts: a serpent with 10 fire dragons is on average 6 dead marines per shot, as opposed to 12 fire warriors = on average 3 dead marines. Yeah, the fire dragons are a little more expensive, but they have a higher leadership, (slightly) better in HtH, fleet of foot, ability to take out tanks, plus I'd rather have a wave serpent than a devil fish any day of the week.

Am I nuts? Could an army like this actually work?
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Re: Biel tan Fish of death?

Postby -Thrax » Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:53 am

As I understand it, Raul from HQ the Club used to run an all-FD list. It suffers from extraordinary vulnerability during the first few rounds, though. He told me about one tournament where he went up against a Chaos opponent with 3 Defilers (or something with three indirect ordnance shots), and had 6 dead Wave Serpents and 60 dead or entangled FDs by the end of round 2. He threw in the towel right then and there.

Check it out here: www.hqtheclub.org/raul_firedragons.html

Not sure how the same army would perform under the new rules. I suspect that it might have gained a little strength, but the plan still relies on getting to your opponent relatively intact. Lose a Serpent, lose 1/6 of your force (effectively, at any rate -- even with fleet, if you drop a Serpent at board's edge, you have to slog all across the board with a gun that shoots 12").

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Re: Biel tan Fish of death?

Postby elrodogg » Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:58 am

Quote:
plus I'd rather have a wave serpent than a devil fish any day of the week.


You must be crazy. You've obviously never heard of smart missile systems. ;)

Seriously though, I think 2 would work, 6 would be a bit of a one-trick pony. What happens when you run up against a nid-hoarde, or greenskin army with tons and tons of rokkits? I don't see them as matchups that are very good for you.
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Re: Biel tan Fish of death?

Postby deFl0 » Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:04 am

I ran an entire Fire Dragon Army in 3rd ed for about 7 months. Fire dragons have been my favorite aspect since 2nd ed where I ran a very fire dragon heavy army. 4th ed makes it simpler to employ now that you can shoot under the tanks. before you always risked a rear shot if you didn;t hug the edges.

I was in a metagaming mode then and I had come up with all sorts of formulas to rate the strength of armies.

{And yes a lot of the formulas actually worked pretty damn well, and gave me new insight into the game, but that's a topic for a nother time....}

Anyway, that army came up with just about the highest firepower rating I could muster at the time.

Apparently, Raul from from HQ ran it once at a GT and got trashed on comp. Running an entire army with less than AP3 gives people a knee jerk reaction of hate.

As for the play of the list, I really liked it. Then again it plays like almost all the list I play (SOBs, rhino rush DG etc).

You'll find you'll have a tough time againts hordes. 10 fire dragons kills 5.5 anything... Always... 5.5 Orks doesn't get you very far... Granted now a days 3 falcons can pump out 25 shots preatty regulary so it's not as bad as it used to be. So remember that number beause it's the guid to win with the list. 2 full squads kills 1 squad of marines. Isolate, remove, rinse repeat. I also like a farseer with guide, hitching a ride. He brought the kill ratio up to around 7. So if 2 vypers helped out a waveserpent all with starcannons, you usually wiped the squad out.

I was running the list in kill groups. I think I had 2 Falcons with 5 fire dragons and farseer and 3 units of 2 vypers with 3 waveserpents filled with fire dragons. I didn't use Exarchs. They where always overkill.

The new Eldar codex will make the list pretty hard core, as fire dragons will be able to take a heavy flamer with the squad with really helps against troops in cover and hordes, although you lose the star canon. Which probably isn't the end of the world when you really want anti light vehicle and horde hunting in this list. Scatter lasers with 4 shots, 2 shots on the pulse laser and a shurkien cannon definately fill this role.

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Re: Biel tan Fish of death?

Postby -Thrax » Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:14 am

Quote:
as fire dragons will be able to take a heavy flamer with the squad with really helps against troops in cover and hordes


Zuh? Explain!

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Re: Biel tan Fish of death?

Postby deFl0 » Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:42 pm

I believe the fire dragon exarch can take a helmut mounted weapon called fire breath or dragons breath or something, which is reportedly a heavy flamer.

Other news is that GW felt fusion guns were to confusing and to make it more in line with everyone else they are giving them the melta gun stats.

Plus if you take a Autarch that uses fire dragons as his base theme I think that makes fire dragons core.

Obviously, take these with a grain of salt but the source seems pretty credable.

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Re: Biel tan Fish of death?

Postby elrodogg » Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:44 pm

Quote:
Plus if you take a Autarch that uses fire dragons as his base theme I think that makes fire dragons core.


If that's true, I am totally doing a warp-spiders army. :D
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Re: Biel tan Fish of death?

Postby mauleed » Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:57 pm

One thing to consider: Raul and Pete ran their armies in 3rd edition.

4th edition makes it much, much nastier. You can use your own skimmers to stop people from assaulting you now and that's huge. So who cares if you only kill 5.5 orks if the orks can't ever get to you.

I see it as workable and I was thinking of doing a mix of firedragons and dire avengers (or guardians if that's how it works out) to cover most of my bases.
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Re: Biel tan Fish of death?

Postby -Thrax » Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:22 pm

Quote:
Plus if you take a Autarch that uses fire dragons as his base theme I think that makes fire dragons core.


Sounds like a Biel-Tan variant. I wonder if this is how they will implement the new "traits" system?

Quote:
I see it as workable and I was thinking of doing a mix of firedragons and dire avengers (or guardians if that's how it works out) to cover most of my bases.


I was thinking the Dragon/Avenger combo too. Dragons in Falcons and a few Serpents, the rest of the Serpents filled with Avengers. Could be nasty! Constant movement (all assault weapons!), a good mix of anti-armor/save and dakka.

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Re: Biel tan Fish of death?

Postby mauleed » Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:02 am

We'll have to see the math though. Vypers with twin Shuriken cannons may be a better buy to deal with hordes.
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