Provisionary Dwarfs of Chaos Errata and FAQ for 8th ed WFB

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Re: Provisionary Dwarfs of Chaos Errata and FAQ for 8th ed W

Postby Larro » Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:04 pm

Kevin, you do realize that Bound Spells are pretty much the worst thing ever, since Wizard Levels give bonuses to Dispel? Thus, Bound 5 is pretty shitty. Throw in the inability to take Arcane Items, and you've got absolute shit for a Hero. I'd NEVER take a Demonsmith.

And this whole approach of not making changes at all is silly. GW CAN'T make changes as fast as they want because they have release schedules to stick to. Your refusal stems from one thing and one thing only - personal choice. That's it. There's no reason that with ALL of the changes, Obsidian Guard are PROPERLY priced at 13 points naked, or Demonsmiths should stay with an inability to take Arcane Items, and pay for Fear. These are things you can address...in about 2 seconds.

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Re: Provisionary Dwarfs of Chaos Errata and FAQ for 8th ed W

Postby KevinC » Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:35 pm

Larry, I said that I did not want to make major changes. I'm considering things like modifying Obsidian Guard slightly (i.e. point cost/fear, etc). I don't think Daemonsmiths are bad for what they are, you have normal Chaos Dwarf heroes if you'd like. I do intend to lower the point cost of Daemonsmiths. At the end of the days Chaos Dwarfs are Dwarfs, their magic should not be as potent as standard armies.

I don't want to do *major* overhauls, especially since the list and most units work just fine. The Daemon Tower for example, is much better in this edition as it gains thunderstomp and also does impact hits.
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Re: Provisionary Dwarfs of Chaos Errata and FAQ for 8th ed W

Postby Larro » Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:37 pm

Fair enough, just so long as some things like Fear and the like, are addressed.

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Re: Provisionary Dwarfs of Chaos Errata and FAQ for 8th ed W

Postby Disastro » Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:31 pm

Kevin:

Hi, I'm Christopher from one of the many fantasy podcasts out there, and a vocal Chaos Dwarf advocate. I've a few observations that I hope you don't mind -

- Axe of Zhrazak: Currently underpowered. From the 8th edition treatment, it now strikes in initiative order by the combination of "Great Weapon" and ASF, so you're paying 65 points for +2 strength (and no shield option), as opposed to the Hammer of Hashut, which provides more, for less. Maybe reword it to read: "Requires Two Hands; the weapon grants the wielder +2 Strength and Always Strikes First".

- Daemonsmith/lack of hero-level wizard options: From the experiences I've had thus far, magic is too powerful to ignore in 8th, and the best magical defense is a wizard. The second-best is a selection of arcane items, and this is where the Chaos Dwarfs - in my opinion, admittedly - are nearly crippled. It's very nearly the case that we simply cannot take them at all. In the current stage of the game, I feel that my lord choice is a non-option - it MUST be the High Priest, because of the spells, the dispels, and the arcane item. I like the theme behind the Daemonsmith very much, but he aged very poorly into 8th edition. He isn't chosen as a wizard, so he has no advantage in channelling, nor dispels, and cannot chose any Arcane items (besides the Holocaust Cloak). Likewise with the Daemon Weapon, they cannot be assumed to provide extra fighting ability, as they cannot be fitted with a proper magical weapon. To complicate things, a bound spell should not be "forced" through with a miscast, as it would cause the Daemon Weapon carried by the Daemonsmith to "crumble" (Big Red Book, pg. 37, Bound Spells), thereby eliminating not only Arcane Alchemy, but Cause Fear, and Bound Deamon as well. Outside of avoiding catastrophes with the Hellcannon, the "Diabolic Manipulator" offers (almost) no tactical use.

Perhaps lower the bound level to 4, thereby giving the Deamonsmith (DS) a fighting chance of risking only one power die (especially with the Holocaust Cloak) in the magic phase. Perhaps allow the DS to carry scrolls from the Arcane list? Perhaps change the Daemon Weapon to "Daemonic Implants" or "Daemonic Baubles" or somesuch, so that the DS can at least carry a magic weapon. Or, finally, if the Chaos Dwarfs are not as potent at casting magic in your vision, perhaps there should be some in-game concession to their ancient dwarfish resistance to magic?

This email is not to criticize you in any way. I owe my current enthusiasm for Warhammer to you in no small degree, as your brilliant book has brought my favorite army back into consideration in many gaming groups and tournaments. I promote the Dwarfs of Chaos army book every chance I get, on-air and offline.

Thanks for considering this, and warm regards,

Topher
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Re: Provisionary Dwarfs of Chaos Errata and FAQ for 8th ed W

Postby allanmcnab » Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:01 pm

So Kevin or Matt (but really Kevin), what are the chances that some of the proposed small changes will be made in time to affect our lists for the xroads.

pretty please?
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Re: Provisionary Dwarfs of Chaos Errata and FAQ for 8th ed W

Postby Larro » Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:52 am

Kevin doesn't care. :(

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Re: Provisionary Dwarfs of Chaos Errata and FAQ for 8th ed W

Postby KevinC » Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:13 pm

Guys, sorry I have not noticed these recent posts. I don't have time to respond this moment, but will respond later today...
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Re: Provisionary Dwarfs of Chaos Errata and FAQ for 8th ed W

Postby allanmcnab » Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:39 pm

I Yearn, wanting something more.
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Re: Provisionary Dwarfs of Chaos Errata and FAQ for 8th ed W

Postby Larro » Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:49 am

Disastro - That's a very solid post, and the points are all very fair, and IMO, accurate. Let's hope Coleman addresses this. I've spoken to him at length about Demonsmiths, and the overpriced nature of Obsidian Guard, but nothing has changed so far. Let's see.

- Larry
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Re: Provisionary Dwarfs of Chaos Errata and FAQ for 8th ed W

Postby KevinC » Fri Sep 17, 2010 5:15 pm

Chris thanks for the feedback.

So here is what's going on. Crossroads is allowing Dwarfs of Chaos and I hear a couple players are bringing them.

Since the deadlines for army lists has expired and the tournament is approx. a week away I'm not changing anything else in this provisionary errata.

This is my plan:

- In October (which is after the Crossroads) I plan on revising this Provisionary Errata. Taking into account feedback both pre and post Crossroads. I intent to make an announcement at Crossroads to encourage both players that played with the army or against to to post comments here. Note, having said that I don't intend any sweeping changes.

- Then in December (or Jan at the latest), I would like to implement the provisionary errata into an 'official' errata. As the same time or shortly afterwords release an 8th edition version of the Dwarfs of Chaos PDF army book with the changes and corrects (including the typos in the background sections).

A note I do intend to adjust the Daemonsmiths point cost and def considering bound level of the daemonweapons and ability to carry magic weapons. However, they will not be wizards. In regards to the 'must take a High Priest', I don't believe that is a problem with Dwarfs of Chaos, but merely a problem with 8th edition. If you are playing the game at a competitive level (i.e. GTs) a level 4 wizard is really a must. Chaos Dwarfs have a little of everything, including being able to take the potent battle magic lores in the rulebook (which are insane). Allowing a hero character to possibly cast spells like the Purple Sun via a bound item is nasty! Further more, Daemonsmiths are a touchy balancing act, I don't want them to make Slavemasters (ordinary heroes) pointless; and I don't want Daemonsmiths to have their cake and being able to eat it. Daemonsmiths can be a very important character, though perhaps not for everyone. I like the fact that players must consider: do I take the less fighty Daemonsmith and get a bound spell from the battle magic lores or do I go with a fighty hero with a magic weapon.

Obsidian Guard will probably drop in price (not a lot) but will also probably lose fear.

Anyway, please continue to discuss, and just be nice please, I'm doing this for free, after all (Larry)...

thanks,

Kevin out
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