Provisionary Dwarfs of Chaos Errata and FAQ for 8th ed WFB

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Re: Provisionary Dwarfs of Chaos Errata and FAQ for 8th ed W

Postby allanmcnab » Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:48 pm

does this mean I have to be nice to you in person as well? :boom: what about when you start running around yelling copious vomit? :lol:
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Re: Provisionary Dwarfs of Chaos Errata and FAQ for 8th ed W

Postby KevinC » Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:14 pm

The provisionary errata has been updated, with changes in RED.

Please leave comments, especially from further playtesting. At this point, late December or Jan. I plan on making these changes final, I don't intend to change anything further from what is in this version of the errata, unless it is really a serious issue.

Shortly after that, a 2.0 Dwarfs of Chaos PDF will be released with these finalized 8th edition changes.

Please comment.

Thanks.
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Re: Provisionary Dwarfs of Chaos Errata and FAQ for 8th ed W

Postby elrodogg » Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:33 pm

Very good overall Kevin. I feel like you adequately looked at everything with the exception of the demonsmith (like everyone) and bull centaur cavalry. I like the doling out of chaos armor to everything and good job lowering the cost of the obsidian guard (because they needed it).

Demonsmith - At 95pts he still can't take a magic weapon and the one he comes with isn't all that great in half the games fielded. Even if it does roll well it doesn't shift him into the realm of a fighty combat character as a standard hero with a great weapon accomplishes this much better. A true level hero level caster serves the army so much more than a character who is half a wizard and half a hero but doesn't do either role well and is overcosted. A viable hero level caster means people aren't going to have to take 2 high priests to be competitive in the magic phase. How about looking at the skaven engineer as the basis of this unit instead? A non-fighty hero with very limited magic access compared to a standard lvl 1/2 wizard. I know that you feel like chaos dwarfs shouldn't have a good magic phase, but looking back on them (unless i am mistaken in my memory of white dwarf presents chaos dwarfs) they've had a good one since their inception.

Bull Centaur cavalry - like all cavalry in the game, this unit is suddenly overcosted (only difference is that you can change things). I would fold the cost of great weapon or xhw or shield into the base cost at 18pts each. Then at 25 pts you have an appropriately costed unit. As it stands now, you need to take a the full loadout in 8th edition for the unit to be survivable and useful, but the price cost is just a shade too high at 27 points per model. It's not much of a change, but I feel it makes the unit right.
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Re: Provisionary Dwarfs of Chaos Errata and FAQ for 8th ed W

Postby KevinC » Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:57 pm

I've updated rules for the Daemon Tower as well, a big overhaul. Thoughts?
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Re: Provisionary Dwarfs of Chaos Errata and FAQ for 8th ed W

Postby elrodogg » Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:19 pm

I love the new rules for the demontower. It's exactly where it needs to be. I would strongly strongly consider taking one now while before I wouldn't.
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Re: Provisionary Dwarfs of Chaos Errata and FAQ for 8th ed W

Postby Larro » Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:14 am

Looks solid, and would definitely be something I'd consider now vs. a 2nd Hellcannon, whereas I would never have considered it before.

I also echo Ronen's remarks about Magic, but you seem vehemently opposed to adding something even as simple as a Level 1 Hobgoblin Mage that is available for CDs to use, that *cannot* be upgraded to Level 2, etc. I would consider a slight points decrease on the Lvl 4 High Priest in lieu of adding a Hero-Level Mage. Nothing large, maybe 15 pts. It would at least make taking a 2nd Lvl 3 Mage a viable option to make up for the fact we cannot get ANY Level 2s, and would not be gamebreaking.

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Re: Provisionary Dwarfs of Chaos Errata and FAQ for 8th ed W

Postby njpc » Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:36 am

Going to chime in with some concerns: Chaos armor for +2 points? Annihalotrs where you gain. May have shields for +1 pt/model. May have Chaos Armour +2 pts/model. May have shields for +1 pt/model. May have Chaos Armour +2 pts/model.

I understanding some of the thought processes, but when you now compare CD dwarves to regular Dwarves you've made CD dwarves infantry stand in a different light. I think your decisions were very generious.

11 pts for a t4 model with killing blow, and a good armor save? Really? The dwarf equivalent pays 13 pts for a much less versatile and less effective model, with an almost identical stat line. So for -2 points you gain killing blow? To generous.

Annihalors with access to shields/chaos armor. Why would you bother taking regular Chaos Warriors now? You have a jack of all trades infantry model who is on a budget. Units of 25 would be awesome. Why not given them light armor shields pulling them in lines with Thunderers.

From an opponents perspective and a fellow GT goer, I love the fact you guys have spent your time and efforts to put an army back on the table that is characterful, and for the players. But I think some of these changes are way to generous. The points value do not line up at all with other armies out there. I think this would be a very unfriendly shock for someone to run into at a GT. The infantry choices available are now good at everything! No other army can do that. Plus CD have access to great magic lore's.

One final thought: Demonsmith's. I agree with the idea of making them like a Warplock for Skaven. To make a Warplock even cast a spell you have to pay 50 pts for it, then if you want a lv 2 its 85 pts. Go with something similar. That way if people want the Demonsmith to "cast" or be like a Runic Caster, your paying big points to make them do it. Yea you get some for versatility in your list, but for 85 pt to be a lv 2+ 95 pts, your really paying for it.
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Re: Provisionary Dwarfs of Chaos Errata and FAQ for 8th ed W

Postby KevinC » Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:02 am

11 pts for a t4 model with killing blow, and a good armor save? Really? The dwarf equivalent pays 13 pts for a much less versatile and less effective model, with an almost identical stat line. So for -2 points you gain killing blow? To generous.


----------They are exactly the same as Hammers when you give them great weapons (13 points). Just Hammers are Stubborn, while Obsidian Guard have Killing blow and fear. Which is better?

As for the Annihilators, there a very tricking unit to please people with. The problem is this - on paper they are probably one of the best looking units in the game. But they DO NOT translate to that in game terms. They are awesome at shooting infantry, but the weakness is A. Short range and low movement B. They are not good at shooting at anything other than infantry, so a good player or any player with some intelect will know how to stop/avoid them. Send your cav, chariots, monstrous infantry, monster, swarms, etc at the Annihilators. On top of their shooting weakness, with just heavy armour and hand weapon they really get slaughtered in combat. By giving them defensive options, they will simply not be so easy to runover by other units. As for warrirors, if you want infantry that can actually dishout some damage, your going to want CD Warriors (with great weapons or spears) and/or Obsidian guard. Not to mention that only CD warriors and Annililators count towards the core percentage, I'd say an all core Annililator army is nothing that great.

I'm not trying to shut your arguements down, just these are my thoughts behind it, which also come from playtesting and observing actual games being played. Further thoughts?

Ronen and Larry, I will address the magic issue in another post.

Thanks,
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Re: Provisionary Dwarfs of Chaos Errata and FAQ for 8th ed W

Postby Larro » Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:22 am

KevinC wrote:----------They are exactly the same as Hammers when you give them great weapons (13 points). Just Hammers are Stubborn, while Obsidian Guard have Killing blow and fear. Which is better?


This. Obsidian Guard at 13 points are the same as a Hammerer with a GW. In a point for point comparison, give me Hammerers over Obsidian Guard please. Stubborn all the time is very important to a unit that needs to grind down enemies to win, and will likely be outnumbered at 13 pts. per model.

As for the Annihilators, there a very tricking unit to please people with. The problem is this - on paper they are probably one of the best looking units in the game.


This again. First, I'm not even considering Chaos Armor OR a Shield for my Annhilators as it is. They just die too fast in HTH. They get 1 or 2 good volleys, if they're not shot down by enemy troops to S4 or S3, and then they just die. My 1 unit of them did nothing but get rolled at Xroads. They were solid vs. a Saurus-heavy LM list, but still died to the 12 Saurus who made it into BTB with them. 5+ Save or 4+ Save, makes very little difference when you're paying for the bump in Armor, and the guys are *still* S3.

Again, in an across the board comparison, I'd take Dwarf Quarellers with GWs over Annhilators for the same points. They're more versatile, and have an impact from Turns 1 - 6, not just Turns 2/3 and then dead.

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Re: Provisionary Dwarfs of Chaos Errata and FAQ for 8th ed W

Postby njpc » Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:10 pm

I'm referencing the opinions based on someone who would potentially play and play against this army. I think the points were generous. I again, think you guys have done a fantastic job with the book, it cannot be easy work, and its not like your being paid to do this.

That being said, i've been slowly building my own army. I have the models, just keeps getting shelved. Once i'm actually up and running. I'll be happy to give more feedback. Obsidian guard at 11pts are better than anything in the Dwarf army book! Seriously, Longbeards are 12 pts for the boosted str/ignore panic. Hammerers, with gw and stubborn are good. At 11 pts, I think Obsidian guard have the potential to be 30+ strong with a basic points investiment. They should be big enough to be horde. You will really lay on the hurt with all the attacks+ killing blow.

As for Annihalators: hitting every model is huge in a unit, in the current edition. 1-2 decent volleys is all you really need. Giving them options for Chaos Armor/ Sh is awesome for the CD player. I'd have my 3 units be 30 Annihalators then Obsidian guard. There's my 3 rock solid massive units, 2 who can shoot 1-2 volleys into whatever is going to charge me and hit everyone in the unit. Yes please i'll take that every time.

I do not think you can make everyone happy. But I think you need to seek more opinions then just here and likely Chaosdwarf online. To back your changes I hope you've gone outside to the TO's out there, games in major clubs and such. If you'd like help, shoot a PM. I can help gather feedback for you. Again, awesome work, FAQ's are difficult, putting out a Indy GT book, near impossible yet you guys pulled it off.
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