Wiatts narrow minded view of your CD book...

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Wiatts narrow minded view of your CD book...

Postby Poxous » Tue May 12, 2009 2:05 am

Ok... Before anyone starts throwing tomatoes( Ed) I am going to state this at the top: I love that Kevin is working on this. I can't think of a better person to do army books or a better person for the hobby than Kevin( Birdoff being a close 2nd!). I am not 'bitching' here nor and I being a sour puss. I am going to go over what I see as an old school bastard in this hobby. Take it for what it is: A review by me. If you dislike me because I complain, cry, whine, bitch, yadda yadda then please close this thread and go F yourself. Don't waste time flaming me cos I am trying to HELP not bash the work done here. That being said, I will move on:

Wow! Overall I think it is an awesome project and has the makings of being a revolutionary one in our hobby. The balls and time it takes to do this is awesome. A+++!

Overall concerns I have:

I think the army "feels" to dwarf like. I mean it doesn not fix the problems stunties have in our game of WFB: 2d6-1 pursue, not doing dmg in HtH. I understand it has cav elements to it BUT I would like to CD armies with CDs in them not centuars, hobgoblins, and war machines! I have some ideas to break the dwarven mold I'll get to later.


Core - solid but lacks fun and flare. I would expect to see a a lot of min core armies.

CDs - good core troop...but... why am I gonna pay 9pts for a unit that will never get a charge, never do Ws in combat, and if it somehow can win a combat will likely not score VPs for me? Here is a crazy thought: SPEARS.

Hobgolbins - Not a bad deal. Could we see a skirmished unit perhaps with bows? Give a little core variety.

Wolf Boys - perfect

Rabble! - Love it. Love the idea. Points and all ... who knows play testing will tell you that. I like the basic idea though.


Sneaky gits - Nice. Good rules. Are they really worth a special? Could we see a 1 per hobgoblin core unit and file them as core? Could they be skirmishers? Sneaking to get that flank or rear charge?

Obsidian Guard - Nice! This is what I like. A new unit, but a fluffy feel to it. Very cool. I'd give the champ 25pts in magic items. I would also consider +1A or hatred. Elite Infantry have to leave a mark. At 14+ points per model these guys are not doing the dmg need to win or be scary. Basically this is a hammer unit with a perk or two. Just a suggestion. I know having a dwarven version of the DE BG would be lame but I'd like to see something make these guys standout a bit more in the "fear us" dept. Maybe the obsidian guard could be immune to magic attacks? MR1, have magical attacks... just a bit more.

Daemoneaters - The old whirlwind and tenderiser. Not a bad idea. I am not sure I like them as solo troops. Units of them might be fun? 40mm d3+1 impact each... dunno. It just seems strange to have one per special like it is. They hit ok but are easy to kill( 3Ws). If you could make them more akin to Kemeri charioteers I think it'd be cool. What about having two types like the old days?

Death Rockets - Good fun. I like the new mechanics. Not sure I like a special slot for em. I was so hoping to see CD bazuka teams when I opened the PDF! Could we take this drop the template to 3" and attack it to units like a skaven weapon teams? just a thought. 100% better than the current crap in the RHs book.

Swivel gun - nice! I like it. BUT again can it be attached to a CD unit? 24" might be a bit far on the range. Swivel guns are short ranged blunderbuss type weapons. I'd go 12" range with the blunder buss rules to hit( no range, no - to hit outside cover, no + to hit either). S4 -2 save is great.

Bolt thrower - solid.

Bull Centaurs - Nice. Can we get a rule that gives them a natural save of 6+ for being bulls? With 1 W and the only fast threat the army has these poor guys are gonna be nuked. They are also competing vs a ton of other specials the army NEEDs. I see a conflict there. I see no reason these guys could not have a 2+ save and be at 28ish pts a model. Barding? Chaos Armor? Something along those lines. These are the temple guard of the God himself right? Maybe MR1 could be in there? They should be ELITE not ok.

Rare -

Earthshaker - I like it. Good way to make it fast and simple. A+ fixing this one. Try 90pts though 110 is a bit much.

Inferno Golems. - I have to say when I heard CDs were getting looked at the one thing I thought of was a giant uber GOLEM! Seeing them on 40mm as a unit was a bit eh... They rules you have for them is nasty BUT I was thinking of a giant that was so-so in HtH, hard has hell to kill, flaming, magical, MR, and had short range shooting( breath or swivel gun). Just me. Not sure how this unit works on the table with the rest of the army. You tell me. I'm just a fan ranting!

Juggernaut - Not sure on this. Play testing will tell you. They idea is not bad. Having them as character mounts might be. Dunno. I'd rather see it in less of a tower aspect and more of a war shrine aspect. Giving some buffs( help those lame core units) and still keeping with the mechromancy of CDs.

hellcannon - drop it. It's WoC. This is CDs.


Just give an over view. I am not sure on the magic. It looks promising but who knows. You'll have to play with it. I think if someone goes with a bullcentaur lord the BCs should be core or at least 2 for 1 slot. Something along those lines.


I think this army list is struggling on core, overkilled on specials, and ok at rare but not in the leagues of VC or DEs! So changes I would do: Create weapon teams and move the rocket to a bazuka team( 25X50mm) and swivel gun to be bout in addition to CDs and O. Guard units. I would also like to suggest the old CD unit "beserkers" as a 0-1 core unit. Naked CDs with frenzy that they never lose, unbreakable, GWs or Add Wpns, and maybe causing fear? Just for some variety. I mean you have a CD army with dwarves, dwarves with a gun, and dwarves with better stat line. It's boring. How about some insane chaos driven anti-slayers? The same kind of logic behind the dwarven slay coupled with the draw of chaos?

I also think some magic items are needed to help the cause of the lowly stuntie. Enemy always strikes LAST banner; Petrification Banner! Fumes of Hashut: -d3 to the enemies charge. Fury of Hashut - CDs only -unit may reroll failed pursue rolls. Flaming wall that can not be crossed bound spell? What about "battle stones" that characters can take. You use them like a power stone but the character and the unit he is with gain say +1A? Stuff that helps the "dwarf" part of the army not be a handicapped so the dwarves are taken and are viable. A fear causing banner might be ok as well.

I think you guys did an awesome job. I'm not saying I am right on any of this stuff! Just tossing my 2 cents into the pool of ideas. I am 100% behind you guys and I hope you are able to read this and take it for what it is. No bashing here just love.
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Re: Wiatts narrow minded view of your CD book...

Postby KevinC » Tue May 12, 2009 5:35 am

Hey Todd, no need to be so defensive about your comments. This is just the type of feedback I'm looking for. I really like your points about the core selection. I've been considering putting weapons teams/swivel guns in core, but waiting to get some playtesting done, etc.


Kevin out
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Re: Wiatts narrow minded view of your CD book...

Postby big al » Tue May 12, 2009 8:43 am

Todd has hit all the points. I would really like to see the book take more of a chaos role instead of a dwarf role as well.
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Re: Wiatts narrow minded view of your CD book...

Postby Guy In Suit » Tue May 12, 2009 10:47 am

-D3 to enemy charge banner seems like a great idea. I'd even think -D6 would be fine and balanced as long as it would be costed appropriately; a very tactical item.

A free-reform banner ala Tomb Kings would be a great way to make warriors more interesting as well.
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Re: Wiatts narrow minded view of your CD book...

Postby Poxous » Tue May 12, 2009 11:24 am

Nice idea. Maybe sneaky gits core with miner like deployment?
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Re: Wiatts narrow minded view of your CD book...

Postby Garrett » Wed May 13, 2009 11:54 am

Oooh, that's a nice idea, maybe make sneaky gits 0-1 or something like that. I just can't justify them as a special with all the other stuff there.
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Re: Wiatts narrow minded view of your CD book...

Postby gjnoronh » Fri May 15, 2009 12:34 pm

Todd I know I've teased you about being a grumpy internet cuss sometiems (along with Larry, and Ed for that matter) but I'm sorry if that made you feel defensive.

Grumpy sometimes or not you're a guy with a great understanding of warhammer.
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Re: Wiatts narrow minded view of your CD book...

Postby Hashuts Scion » Sat May 16, 2009 3:08 pm

For a different type of Sneaky Git, I proposed a long time ago for a scouting, skirmishing unit of sneaky's that could throw poison daggers. List is under 'thoughts from a long timer' thread.

Take a look, if you haven't already.
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