First Impressions

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First Impressions

Postby Xystophoroi » Tue May 12, 2009 8:30 am

Hi.

Right, I've read through some of it some things I've noticed.

You'll never cast a spell with a High Priest. You'll only get one in most games and thus get to cast a grand total of two spells per turn...on 7(9). Basic magic defence will see that ignored.

The other option is to go for bound magic blitz. This is a very large points outlay (to get all those daemonsmiths with daemon weapons) for things that will see little use in a real game against someone with sensible levels of magic defence.

Also some of the bound effects are way out there

60pts for bound level 5, one enemy wizard in 18" loses a random spell.

This is teh borkens. Not even counting the MR(3).

Some races have spell destroying items at 50pts for one use only on a 4+ enemy spell is dispelled+destroyed.

I'll give it a better look through later but these were some of the things that immediately jumped out at me. Also, the Juggernaut...seems rules heavy and a bit silly. Just something about it being a siege tower randomly turning up away from a siege.

I like that the army has a small number of CD's and lots of hobbos/greens, different to most warhammer armies.

My biggest gripe though is the core selections.

They are mind numbingly boring. CD warriors fail for the same reason regular dwarves fail. They kill nothing, move slowly and rely on static CR5 to see them through. Something should be done to make them seem like a real threat and not just a roadblock that crumbles in the face of powerful shock troops.
Thoughts:-
-some way of giving better charges (perhaps +d6 inches on first charge from an item/upgrade)
-some way of making it so that they can operate independently (flank em and their gone, means they want to sit somewhere surrounded by other stuff which means they do basically nothing for a large outlay of points) perhaps a free turn/reform at the end or beginning of their move to show their discipline.
-more attacks or something, maybe add hand weaps at +1pt so they are different to regular dwarves.

As it stands I can see a whole lot of min core armies with basically no CD's in the army except as chars/warmachine crews.
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Re: First Impressions

Postby mattbird » Tue May 12, 2009 11:18 am

re: the juggernaut, the intention was to make rules for the model as it exists, which is pretty complex.
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Re: First Impressions

Postby pjschard » Tue May 12, 2009 1:34 pm

New Guy here
On first (and second) reading I think the Daemon Weapons could unbalance the list a bit.
I really like them, and I think they're really fluffy, but I think they are pretty undercosted.
I think they might work better with some Liability (say an LD test on successful wound thing(although that's very chancy))
I think an idea to make them powerful but balanced might be to make the bound spells unit buffs (say +1 attack, ASF, enemy loses charging bonuses, etc.)
So the idea would give the Daemonsmiths some nice weapons (very offensive) but also help the units they join become more offensive, and able to break enemy units a little better in close combat.
I love the fluff on the sorcerors and think it should work out great. I think dwarfs shouldn't have to rely on magic, but it shouldn't hurt.
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Re: First Impressions

Postby mattbird » Tue May 12, 2009 1:37 pm

welcome to the boards!

I think the magic/daemonsmith weapons are the main thing that will need testing. The rest of the rules are easy to put in context, as they are familiar, but this is a whole new magic system that needs to be tried. I can't figure out if it's too good or too poor as it it...

granted, if you go with priest and 3 daemonsmiths, you'll have an overpowering phase. But that's the equivalent of taking 4 wizards, which is also an overpowering magic phase.
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Re: First Impressions

Postby pjschard » Tue May 12, 2009 3:42 pm

allright, upon third reading of the list, (and this forum)
The magic system seems great!(I didn't read very carefully) :oops:
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Re: First Impressions

Postby Xystophoroi » Tue May 12, 2009 6:17 pm

See, I don't know if it will be all that overpowering a magic phase.

Assuming Priest, 3xdaemonsmiths and a bound from some of the other units = 6 spells cast. Highest casting would be 9 but most likely a 7 (thus 2d6 dispel). Most are PL3 so 1d6.

Simple fix. Daemon weapons have their bound spell as ONE USE ONLY. There is a reason that heroes are limited in the point of items they can bring, it stops an army having too many of the powerful effects. Usually one lord means one item >50pts so that means that there are lots of weaker items but only one of the real killer items. If the balancing factor of an item is points cost (esp. on a hero only at 55pts) then you need to consider what other effects that it may have.

But once again we suffer from a problem with fantasy armies. Either all in for magic or don't bother. Priest + smith = waste (high cost for 3 easily stopped spells). You either need to take all 'caster' heroes or none to make it worthwhile.

As was suggested above, perhaps the daemonsmith items could be used as unit upgrades, like a combination of daemonic heralds and dwarfish runes.

Daemonsmith can bind in a daemon in their items that give the unit they join +1M (seriously, do something to make the CD warriors worth it w/out blunderbusses), or +1S or +1A or something for a fixed cost, then allow mix+match like dwarf runes up to a limit. Big difference being that the daemon item ONLY has an effect when joined to a unit. Probably count daemonsmith attacks as magical as well.

Right now I envisage 2x15 CD warriors w/blunderbuss and hobbos in core then twin earthshakers as the norm and I've not checked specials well enough yet.
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Re: First Impressions

Postby warmongerclub » Tue May 12, 2009 9:24 pm

My initial impression is the book has too many special rules. As a player who is never going to field CDs, I'd find this list annoying to face at an Indy GT by virtue of the number of exceptions I'd have to learn for an unofficial, home brewed list. IMO to be successful this project has got to feel comfortable and be easy to grasp (the mechanics). Magic should work like magic, shooting should work like shooting, warmachines should be familiar in design and use.

General NEW special rules: Slave Lords, the entire magic phase
General (but familiar) special rules: Animosity, Unyielding, Gift from Darkness
Unit Specific NEW rules: Treacherous Gits, Dirty Rotten Sneaky, Blunderbuss, High priests, Whirlwind of Death, Death Rocket, Earthshaker Cannon, Construct Weapons (3 new rules in one!), Juggernaut (new shooting, Close Combat, Destruction and unit strength rules), lammasu (MR 2 on a monster?), Great Tauras (fiery hide), Astragoth (Mechanical Locomotion, Death Blow), ZHATAN THE BLACK (Throne of Hashut, Bulwaark the Snotling, Slave Tyrant), Gorduz (Third Time
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Re: First Impressions

Postby mattbird » Tue May 12, 2009 9:47 pm

warmongerclub wrote:
General NEW special rules: Slave Lords, the entire magic phase
General (but familiar) special rules: Animosity, Unyielding, Gift from Darkness
Unit Specific NEW rules: Treacherous Gits, Dirty Rotten Sneaky, Blunderbuss, High priests, Whirlwind of Death, Death Rocket, Earthshaker Cannon, Construct Weapons (3 new rules in one!), Juggernaut (new shooting, Close Combat, Destruction and unit strength rules), lammasu (MR 2 on a monster?), Great Tauras (fiery hide), Astragoth (Mechanical Locomotion, Death Blow), ZHATAN THE BLACK (Throne of Hashut, Bulwaark the Snotling, Slave Tyrant), Gorduz (Third Time
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Re: First Impressions

Postby Ring87 » Wed May 13, 2009 5:21 am

I agree with Jim. Too many special rules.

I also agree about the core Dwarf units needing something. I like the Idea of Chaos Armor for a 1 or 2 point cost increase. 10/11pts for a 2+Armor Save. T4 guy makes them worth taking.

I love the Demon weapons and Hobgoblin characters.

I also like making Bull Centaurs cause fear. Do they get the +2 str for great weapons?

I like the current magic system/mages/lores.

The Golems are cool. They need WS4 to be viable like treekin (who also have the 5+ ward). The Eruption Gun option dosn't say what happen if you roll a misfire. It's not a cannon. The Conflageration is cool but the Lava storm is kind of ass. They are not worth 65pts as is. No cannons, WS 3 with regen would be cool.

The jug-tower thing needs to be cleaned up and needs to be stubborn. Siege Tower don't flee.

Someone mentioned Sneaky Gitz as skirmishers. Which I think is a great idea.

I think you did a great job on the Earthshaker and Blunderbuss units.

I like the fact that you took the old models(3rd edition) in consideration.

Overall pretty good job. Kept the flavor added some. Power level is cool. I think if you touch up the magic phase/arcane items you'll be in business.
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