Thoughts from a long-time player

Moderators: KevinC, mattbird

Re: Thoughts from a long-time player

Postby Renufus » Wed May 13, 2009 3:55 pm

Larro wrote:I think this is the only assessment of yours which I vehemently disagree with. The ES is awful at the moment. It's a stone thrower with the ability to maybe stop 1 non-flying unit. Awful. A SSC is as expensive WITH Skulls of the Foe, and without it, causes Auto-Panic, is Flaming, and Magical. This is just a total neuter-job. Bring back the old one and up the points to 130-140, don't take away all its teeth but keep the name.

- Larry


The more I think about it, the more I believe you're right. A big reason not many people look at the Death Rocket right now is because stone throwers really aren't all that reliable and don't do enough when they hit compared to the chances that they do nothing at all. A big feature of what makes the ES work is that it can still do something even when it veers off its target. After some thought, you might be better off keeping the ES the way it is now, but don't let it affect flyers and make it a bit more expensive, maybe 130pts.
Renufus
 
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 7:37 pm

Re: Thoughts from a long-time player

Postby Hashuts Scion » Wed May 13, 2009 9:26 pm

Renufus wrote:Hobgoblin Chieftain: Very cool option, and gives the army a totally different way of playing. Like him a lot.


Sneaky Gits: I really would like for these guys to skirmish with the possibility for a 0-1 scouting option to represent their assassin-like nature. Without any kind of flexible skirmishing unit it's pretty easy to fall into the same trap as Dwarfs/WoC are currently in. Plus, being skirmishers/scouts would allow them to make better use of their backstabbing rule and gives them a definite role in the army. It just makes more sense for them to skirmish as well, as I don't see sneaky gits marching to war in nice, tight formations.



Just wanted to bring a couple of points here. I agree with the idea of a Hobgoblin chieftain, it also allows the Hobgoblin mongol hordes armies to exist.

Way back when GW did the world-wide Albion campaign, fans were allowed to create some army lists. Mine was accepted for the CDs. In it, I had a skirmishing hobgoblin unit called 'knifers'. They could scout, skirmish, and had poisoned throwing daggers for +3 points.
Just a thought.
Hashuts Scion
 
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 4:10 pm

Re: Thoughts from a long-time player

Postby mattbird » Wed May 13, 2009 9:53 pm

well, let's see the list! ;)
jer732 wrote:Birdoff makes me want to rage quit life
mattbird
 
Posts: 5595
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:25 pm

Re: Thoughts from a long-time player

Postby BenTheRat » Wed May 13, 2009 9:57 pm

Larro wrote:
What about the little-discussed fact that ALL of the Bound Spells exhaust on a 1, AND do a Wound to the user??? Tell me any mage you know who has a 1 in 6 chance of suffering a wound and ALSO losing his ability to "cast" - if you want to call it that.

- Larry


Larry, first off only the Daemon weapons run out on a 1. Not ALL bound spells.

2nd, Skaven Warlocks suffer a str 5 hit, whenever they roll a 1 for the number of hits they get. So every time they get off the low level Warp lightning, there is a 1 in 6 chance it will do a str 5 hit to them. And if they do the high level, then there is an almost a 1/3 chance they will take a str 5 hit and a 1/36 chance they will take 2 str 5 hits. (oh yea, been there done that, when I got IF to cast it.)
And that still have the risk of miscasting as everyone else does. And for a long time people thought Warlocks were broken.

Once they suffer the 1 wound, I usually keep on casting with them.
thats why I suggested dropping the have it run out, and instead of a str 4 hit, just have them take the -1 Init. Then 1 more and toast, do you take that chance, just like a Skaven Warlock.

With Skaven we are giving up 1/2 vp as well and no armor. At least the Daemon guys still have 2 wounds, so no vp loss and have a 4+ armor save, maybe 3+ for that str 4 hit.

Maybe its better to let the Daemons swords keep working, but all the other bound items stop working on a 1.
Ben The Rat
**************
Tales of Battle
Real Armies
Real Battles

http://www.talesofbattle.com
BenTheRat
 
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 1:36 pm

Re: Thoughts from a long-time player

Postby Larro » Wed May 13, 2009 11:47 pm

BenTheRat wrote:
2nd, Skaven Warlocks suffer a str 5 hit, whenever they roll a 1 for the number of hits they get. So every time they get off the low level Warp lightning, there is a 1 in 6 chance it will do a str 5 hit to them. And if they do the high level, then there is an almost a 1/3 chance they will take a str 5 hit and a 1/36 chance they will take 2 str 5 hits. (oh yea, been there done that, when I got IF to cast it.)
And that still have the risk of miscasting as everyone else does. And for a long time people thought Warlocks were broken.


You win. Skaven magic is completely underpowered, fair and balanced, and completely ineffectual. What were all of us thinking when our armies were vaporized by efficient magic missiles cast with devastating redundancy + free warpstone awesomeness?

Tell ya what - give me your Skaven magic, complete with dice, warpstone and spell lore, and you take this 1 in 6 chance of having a total crap phase, coupled with a 1 in 6 chance PER MAGE of losing the ability to cast with your bound + 50% chance to take a wound. It's a totally fair trade! :roll:

- Larry
"Just being born means you've lost to Larro. Or haven't you gotten the memo yet?" - Nidal

"Larry was right. I know he never gets tired of hearing that." - Canterman
User avatar
Larro
 
Posts: 3296
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:52 pm

Re: Thoughts from a long-time player

Postby Xystophoroi » Thu May 14, 2009 4:40 am

Problem I have is with Daemonsmith Weapons.

In a regular 2k army how many items of >50pts do you see?

One.

The balancing factor for the DW's seems to be cost and running out but it still allows you to run around with items whose effect is of greater value than 50pts, not nice in combos.

I'd rather see Daemonsmiths operate as some kind of mix between Daemonic Heralds and Dwarf standards with runes.

Give them a daemon item and allow them to spend X-points buying daemons effects bound into it. These effects only work when the smith is part of a unit (so the smith has no benefit when by himself, this differentiates from dwarf rune weapons which buff the character), limit the number of smiths per unit and the units they can join.

For example 55pts w/75pts bound daemons. I can get a Smith that allows me to give any CD unit +1M, +1A, stubborn, immune to psych, +d6 1st charge, enemies -1A, enemies -1S, etc.

Give those warrior units some real punch and/or variety. Make core rank and file appealing and make the smith operate as mobile unit buffs (rather than having a buff unit ala cauldron/warshrine).

Skirmishing sneaky gitz = good. Follow normal magic practice, it works, and we know, more or less, how good items and abilities are in relation to it making it far easier to balance.

Hobbos should be 3pts. +1pt for shield OR bow, +1pt for LA.

Drop the funky effects for the golems. Flaming magic attacks, 3+ save, Ws4, 3/4 S5/6 attacks. 55pts/each.

1st playtest this weekend.
Xystophoroi
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 8:18 am

Re: Thoughts from a long-time player

Postby BenTheRat » Thu May 14, 2009 10:43 am

@Larry, nothing like good old sarcasm to get your point across in a clear and eloquent manner. I don't want to get into a pissing match with you. But it is my guess you never actually played Skaven warlocks for any length of time.

Take a look at a typical Skaven warlock.
Everytime he casts, he can miscast and suffer a wound. 95% of them, roll 3d6 to get of the 9+ spell. So they have about a 60% chance to cast it and a 7.5% chance to miscast.
If he ate his piece of warpstone to roll 4d6, he has a 1/6 chance of suffering a wound whether the spell works or not and increases his chance to miscast.
If he gets the spell off, he has another 3% chance the spell does nothing except kill him.
And then a 30% chance that the spell is only half as affective as it should be, and takes a wound himself.

Sure if it works, it can be devastating. But its a miracle if your warlock makes it out of a game unwounded, and this is assuming no one targets them with anything the entire game.

But you have missed my point completely. :bash:
Let me see if I can slow it down a bit.
I am proposing we increase the magic potential, but with that kind of power, you have to have some drawback to go with it.

But they are probably fairly balanced the way they are. If you roll a '1', the DS's sword stops working and you have a 25% chance of suffering a wound. (str 4 vs T4, then a 3+ armor save becoming 4+).
And now you are left with a fighty character with a magic weapon. It should probably be changed that it does work that time, but runs out afterwards. Like most bound items work.
Ben The Rat
**************
Tales of Battle
Real Armies
Real Battles

http://www.talesofbattle.com
BenTheRat
 
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 1:36 pm

Re: Thoughts from a long-time player

Postby mattbird » Thu May 14, 2009 10:58 am

BenTheRat wrote:@Larry, nothing like good old sarcasm to get your point across in a clear and eloquent manner. I don't want to get into a pissing match with you.



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Ben, meet Larry.

Larry, meet Ben.
jer732 wrote:Birdoff makes me want to rage quit life
mattbird
 
Posts: 5595
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:25 pm

Re: Thoughts from a long-time player

Postby Xystophoroi » Thu May 14, 2009 12:00 pm

Actually that's a point

Is the daemonsmith means to be S5 T4 or S4 T5?
Xystophoroi
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 8:18 am

Re: Thoughts from a long-time player

Postby Hashuts Scion » Thu May 14, 2009 8:36 pm

Because you asked for it, here was the army list I proposed for the Albion Campaign, accepted and posted for world-wide notice:

Let
Hashuts Scion
 
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 4:10 pm

PreviousNext

Return to General discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron