Moderators: KevinC, mattbird


Postby Mixster » Wed May 13, 2009 6:13 pm

Everyone called their ideas post something new, but I decided to just call it thoughts, because I have no imagination.

Lots of things I know will get covered up, like most of the book being Spanish (or is it Italian?).

However there are a few things I'd like to comment on:

Characters: Overall the character selection looks nice and balanced, I still have trouble of thinking of when I'd use a slavemaster unless it is a BSB, however. Going back to magic in a while. I dislike the idea of a hobgoblin horde, but whatever suits you, I'm never gonna think of fielding it.

Magic: I really dislike the 4 dispel dice rule, it is not a chaos dwarf rule IMO. I'd give them two, and allow daemon smiths to generate dispel dice (look further down for my suggested fix for daemon smiths)
High Priest: I like the idea of basing the magic around a priest system, however I think it is too weak, I also think it will get largely ignored, I think you should make him a regular Level 4 wizard instead, perhaps with his own unique lore. True he might be able to cast off the equivilent of 4 dice a turn, but he doesn't really have any magic support to help him.
Daemon Smiths: I really like the idea of daemon weapons however the power level on them seems kindda random, the shadow blade is kindda boring (unless the range of 18" S6 attack also reduce stats in which case it is awesome), while the hellblade of Hashut is awesome. I mean, S5 breath weapon! That's like, a warpfire thrower! And it can't missfire! Also makes your daemonsmith S6. Oh and I'm not a fan of loads of bound spells.
A suggested fix:
Make daemon smiths level 1 (2?) wizards without spells, let them use their daemon weapons for casting spells, they can cast the spell in the daemon weapon, but it isn't a bound spell, it has a casting value and they need to use their dice for it, in a similar way to skaven warlock engineers.
Make High priests either function like regular casters, or make their drawback less dangerous. Their spells are killers at their casting value however, especially Petrify is insane. Eruption ain't bad either, creating a S8 hit causing D6 wounds on anything in the game as a power level 7 bound spell, yum yum, if that gets through it can give you 200+ points in one go.

Magic Items:
Three items spring to mind as invariably powerful and over the top I want to field them in every game items:
Amulet of Hashut: 40 points for a 5+ ward save might be a little expensive, but it gives hatred to his entire unit. A bull centaur in a unit of bull centaurs with this item will be pretty killy, so will it be in a unit of obsidian guards. I can't really think of a fix for it though.
Banner of daemonic tides: Make your Chaos dwarves into proper troops. I actually quite like this item, but it will always be used, perhaps increase it to any chaos dwarf unit within 12", and make it cost 75-125 points.
Bull Horn of Uzkulak: If you have a decent magic phase, this item can spell doom for an enemy, if given to a dude on a lammasu this item can effectively destroy an entire Low LD army.
The hell armour is also quite good.

Core: Good and solid, however the rule that you must have 3 units of chaos dwarves in 2000+ games is kindda limiting. I'd rather have at least half you core choices must be chaos dwarven units. Why? Well if you have to include at least 30 high-hatted movement 3 close-combat/close-range dudes, your army is pretty much limited to being an infantry force, and rarely would you want to field more infantry, as you will want as much support for your core hats as you can get.

Hobgoblins seem nice, although someone else posted a nice fix making them 4 points with hand weapon + shield, allowing for bows instead of shields or light armour for +1 point. Letting a dwarf slaver lead them seems kindda stupid as they go down to M3 from it.

Hobgoblin Riders: Needs to get tested, I can't think of any army I wouldn't include at least three units of these in.

Rabble: A nice suicide unit, throwing in a banner and a musician will make a unit of 25 cost 87 points, can't think of a reason not to include two of these on a flank, at least they will cause D6 S3 hits on the enemy.

Special Choices:
Sneaky Gits: Should have access to short bows or throwing weapons or blow pipes, should skirmish and should scout. With the loss of the lap around rules these things should work differently, also the army severely lacks skirmishers and scouts. If they don't get these upgrades I can see no reason for including these in my army. What role should they fill without those additional abilities? A weird kind of hammer unit? Too bad bulls do it better and so does obsidian guard, and so does the daemoneater especially.

Obsidian Guard: I like them, but they should be more powerful, they should be more elite. I suggest giving them stubborn, or perhaps stubborn if accompanied by the general.

Daemon Eaters: The bull centaur dragging it can't attack? Apart from that, It is a very powerful machine, they are wonderful hammers, but perhaps one per special choice makes them hard to get. Apart from that they are wonderful cheap chariots which cause a good amount of impact hits.

Death Rocket: Personally I think this should be very similar to the imperial rocket battery, as it is essentially that.

Swivel Cannon: I don't like and I don't think it is worth 60 points, true it is the only long range thing against fast cavalry apart from bow armed hobgoblins, but it is too expensive in comparison, IMO.

Spear Chukkas: I'd like it with the option of including a chaos dwarf slaver to make them stand in line, would also make them more effective. Apart from that it seems fine.

Bull Centaurs: Wonderful hammer unit. Still 5+/4+ armour save with T4 will make them the primary target for enemy missiles, I thought the ravening hordes version was too expensive, and I think this one is too. I could justify giving them a 5+ ward save. Also it needs to be clarified how their great weapons and the HW + Shield bonus works for them.

Earthshaker: I like it, It is good but not as insane as the one in the ravening hordes book. Personally I think it is a little expensive, but that is up to playtesting.

Inferno Golems: I'm torn, I'm pretty sure I'll never upgrade them, but they are still pretty solid. That being said, I think they lack a bit of purpose in the army, they are neither a hammer or an anvil unit. My thoughts for changes: Reduce their attacks by 1 and make them unbreakable, the army needs something that can stand it's ground, and this could be it.

Juggernaught: Too complicated, too big and too invincible. I don't like it, and would like to see something else instead, perhaps the obsidian guard moved to rare and another chaos dwarf unit added as special, so you have more than two different units of dwarves.

Hell Cannon: Even more artillery that fits nicely in the army.

Good job the army has a nice feel to it, I think it needs structure and a definate idea of how it should work. Do you want it to be an artillery army? Do you want it to be an elite army? Do you want it to have a little bit of everything? What is the purpose of the army, why can't the army just be proxied with regular dwarves?

But good job and good idea anyway, looking forward for more.
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Re: Thoughts...

Postby mattbird » Thu May 14, 2009 12:15 pm

good feedback. thanks!
jer732 wrote:Birdoff makes me want to rage quit life
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Re: Thoughts...

Postby xmbk » Thu May 14, 2009 1:50 pm

My Chaos Latin is a little rusty, but from what I see you guys are putting together a great book. Daemon weapons and the magic system is very innovative. I'll do what I can to playtest some games and give more valuable feedback.

But my initial take is that the 3 CD minimum Core is a potential issue. Looking at it from the viewpoint of a regular gamer and not just a few fans playing it in 3 NE tourneys, seeing 3x10 CD in most lists (probably with Blunderbusses) could get repetitive. The idea of weapon teams could solve this nicely. Only units of 20, without Blunderbuss, can take a weapon team. Then adjust the price of the teams to reflect the cost of taking 20 RnF Dwarfs.

How about not allowing overrun/pursuit when Rabble blow? Seems to fit the fluff more, and would actually make for some interesting tactics. Sort of like reverse Minos.
Not caring adds a whole new dimension to the game.
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Re: Thoughts...

Postby MantisZero » Thu May 14, 2009 6:25 pm

I also love the magic phase. I havnt had a chance to playtest an actual game but it seems fun. Sure bad things happen, but they have to just to balance things out a bit. I am sure it will be broken by someone at some point by taking the Priest, 2-3 Smiths and a bunch of bounds. This is why we have a comp system, to deter people from doing this.

I think the 3 units of Blunderbuss core are going to be the norm with this army. Even if you change it, you will still see most lists running at least 2 units of them anyway. I dont think the rules should drive people away from taking 3 buss units, again, there is a reason why these GTs have comp.
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