My thoughts on the CD list V2

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My thoughts on the CD list V2

Postby Renufus » Sat May 23, 2009 6:34 pm

Okay, so there have been lots of improvements and I think this project is definitely moving in the right direction. Here are my thoughts on the second version of the army list and where I feel there could still be improvements.

Special Rules

Animosity is the big one here... I still hate that a unit can sit there and fight amongst themselves 1" away from an enemy unit. Orcs & Gobbos players round the world tend to agree that Animosity is a big reason why greenskins in general tend to suffer, and it's even worse here because the only way to get around it is to take a magic banner that only a BSB can carry. A unit that squabbles should have the option to ignore the result if it can successfully declare a charge against the nearest enemy unit it can see. Check in the compulsory moves part of the phase like a frenzied unit and if the charge it out of range the unit squabbles as normal.

Characters

Still not sold on special characters in general so I'll hold off on commenting on them since I'm not likely to ever playtest them in a normal game of Warhammer.

High Priest: I still don't like the bound spell casting. For one, nobody is ever going to use him without the Arcane Apparatus. There might as well not even be an Arcane Items section because in practice nobody is going to risk their 250+ point Priest who might also be the general killing himself. Furthermore, without any kind of Sorcerer option the army is capped at 5 dice and the Hexacon which is just not enough in today's metagame. The Fire Stones help a bit but they do nothing against VC invo/dance spam or mass Treesinging or other such things and they pretty much prevent you from creating any sort of magic item combos on the characters that carry them because they eat up so much allowance. I still think CD should go back to the standard Sorc/Sorc Lord options with the ability to use Hashut, Fire, Metal, Death, and Shadow Lores. Expand the Arcane Items section and make them turn to stone on a miscast or something to make the Sorc Lord w/Apparatus and 2 scrolls less of a no-brainer. As is, in any sort of competitive environment this guy will be taken every time just for his dispelling power and is unlikely to cast much against a standard magic defense unless he's backed up by 3 Daemonsmiths.

Daemonsmith: The Daemon Weapons are only useful if there is a High Priest in the army to draw out dispel dice, which just further pushes him into the 'no-brainer' category.

Everything else: Good.

Magic Items

Much improved. I can see very few choices I would ever make a decision to avoid, besides the aforementioned Arcane Items which are totally overshadowed by the one obvious choice. The Daemon Weapons all seem pretty balanced and useful.

Core

Eruption Gun: What base size is an eruption gun on? How many dwarfs does it require to handle it? Statline? Can it be singled out by shooting? This option needs a lot more explanation because it's pretty confusing right now. Besides which, it suffers from the same problem as the Skaven equivalent: easily neutered by any kind of shooting. In addition, it can't move and fire so it either sits back and has its LOS blocked by everything else that's moving up or it moves its 3" (as it's treated like a war machine it can't march) per turn and does nothing. Either way it's likely to be the first thing targeted by enemy shooting. I like the idea in principle but in practice it's a lot of points that will hardly ever pay for itself. Perhaps this should just be some kind of upgrade to the unit itself... I would like it to stay in some form as it gives the army an answer to skirmishers and fast cav which are a huge weakness of the army in Ravening Hordes.

Chaos Dwarfs: I'd have to playtest the unit with Chaos Armour but I like the change. Also the Eruption Gun option makes them an attractive alternative to Blunderbusses. If the Eruption Gun were a bit more streamlined I could see myself using more than one unit.

Annihilators: Blunderbusses are still a bit on the weak side if you ask me but I'll do some playtesting and let you know.

Hobgoblins: Still need fixing. They're too expensive to be useful as fodder with shields, terrible for 4 points without shields, and I don't see anybody ever using them with bows. They're a 20+ unit with armour they will almost never have any use for and they suffer from animosity, making them point for point some of the worst archers, if not the very worst, in the entire game for 6 points apiece. They're just not really very good at anything and I don't think I'd ever use them with the other options available.

Wolf Riders: Me likey.

Sneaky Gits: Glad to see them move to Core, sad that they still don't skirmish or scout. As a ranked unit with M4 and animosity they're not likely to get much out of their special rule and they're still T3 with no armour and 6 points a pop.

Rabble: Why use Hobgoblins at all when these are available?

Special

Obsidian Guard: Still doesn't feel right. One attack is not enough to make me want to use the GW option, especially since they're not stubborn and are not likely to ever charge something. They're far too expensive to get much mileage out of their Fear ability and for the points you're really not getting much over your standard Chaos Dwarf, especially since they can now get Chaos Armour. It just feels like they should be Stubborn instead of causing Fear. As is they just really don't do anything well and are expensive to boot.

Daemoneaters: I don't own any of these models so I can't say I'll ever use one.

Death Rocket: Even though it still feels like it should fire like a mortar, removing the scatter element actually makes it quite interesting. I'll do some playtesting and get back to you, but it certainly looks promising.

Bolt Throwers: Good stuff.

Bull Centaurs: Pretty solid special choice. Like 'em.

Rare

Juggernaut: Still don't like it. Too complicated, too messy, too much for anyone not playing Chaos Dwarfs to remember. I would shy away from using it just because I'd rather not sit there for 10 minutes and try to explain it to someone. In some kind of Siege supplement it would make sense but for normal games it's just too much.

Hellcannon: I still think this should be left to WoC but I have no problem with it being there.

Earthshaker: Don't think I'd use it. Stone Throwers are notoriously unreliable and the half movement effect just isn't enough to entice me into using one, especially since it's so expensive. The fact that in Ravening Hordes it can be used to shut down a shooting unit or dirupt enemy lines even if it scatters off-target is what makes it worth using.

Golems: Still don't see the weapon options as being necessary. Even without the options, they're still quite expensive for what they do. Oddly, they don't seem to be immune to flaming attacks which I would think for a unit like this would be a no-brainer. I would still like to see them moved up to WS4 also.

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Overall, as I said the project is heading in the right direction but it's still not there yet. Lots of things are weird and complicated, some choices are just not worth using in any situation, and the army still has a ton of weaknesses and not many strengths. I'd be interested to hear from some of the boys in charge what direction they want the CD army to go in. What is their purpose, how do they fight? Right now it seems like a great big mishmash of rules and units that don't really synergize very well.
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Re: My thoughts on the CD list V2

Postby mattbird » Sun May 24, 2009 11:05 am

Hi thanks for the overview. I definitely agree on the rabble vs. hobgoblin comments.

I think we must keep animosity for greenskins. It's a limitation, sure, but that's part of the army character.

Having used the Juggernaut in 2 games now, I definitely like the way it works in gameplay. While I didn't find it too complicated, I think the wording could be refined.
jer732 wrote:Birdoff makes me want to rage quit life
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Re: My thoughts on the CD list V2

Postby Jaghatai » Mon May 25, 2009 1:05 am

I've played a few games using an all Hobgoblin force, so I haven't seen them interact with the Chaos Dwarf portion of the list.

The only reason to use Hobgoblins over rabble is because of the Dwarf Slaver. Ld 9 Hobgoblins which don't cause panic in other units is still a bargain for under 100pts.

Sadly, you are always going to have a balance issue between Rabble and Hobbos. Whichever unit is cheaper will be the unit most used. An easy way to fix that is to remove the Hobgoblins from the list entirely, and just have them use the Rabble rules.

Or you can combine the two units as you have them now. Have them be 4pts base (hand weapon/light armor), +1 for shields/spears/bows, animosity, +8 for music/banner/normal unit champ, +16 for Dwarf Slaver. As long as they have a Slaver leading the unit, they flee as a normal unit. If there is no Slaver, if they flee, they "explode. Everyone ignores panic from Rabble, because they are Rabble. Rabble banners don't give away points, nor do they count as banners for scenarios, etc. But that may be too drastic a change.
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Re: My thoughts on the CD list V2

Postby Dedwrekka » Mon May 25, 2009 3:50 am

I'd suggest removing Light Armor from Rabble, as well as the bows option. Drop them down 1 point, keep them generally similar to Skaven Slaves.

Add a spear option to Hobgobs. Probably drop them a point as well.

I use hobgoblins because they make a great light infantry unit. Excellent for adding numbers to combat, and great combat flankers for a slow army like Chaos Dwarfs.

rabble are better as sacrifice and bomb units.
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Re: My thoughts on the CD list V2

Postby Hashuts Scion » Mon May 25, 2009 10:01 pm

The biggest drawback to hobs that I have seen is the increase in size from 10 to 20. That makes it unlikely that I will ever field bowmen as they have no other advantages. If there were units of 10, then I would, as I have in the past, use them. The size of 20 does give me advantages in CR, but then I would have taken regular hobs, hopefully with spears.

I like the wolfriders with unit size 5.

I like sneaky gits being core, but given the choice between regular hob or sneaky git with poison, I would almost always choose sneaky git. Should their be a limitation on the number of sneaky git units in total (i.g., no more sneaky git units than hobgoblin units) as they only are one tribe? Also, should their be a sneaky git hero level character? Doesn't need to be an additional hero slot, just an upgrade to the regular hobgoblin.

I like the Deamoneaters. Before, it was just the BC and wolfriders, not I have chariots as well.

Animosity: Perhaps, if there is a CD slaver, then he can quell animosity similar to what Black Orcs do, ie kill 1d6 models. Whether this is an advantage or not, playtest will tell.

Obsidian Guard: Agree they are too expensive without being stubborn.

Earthshaker: I'm ok with the S3, but the template needs to be 5" or the effect needs to be 2d6. The main fear of this used to be the earthshake effect which also affect flyers. Now, it is too weak. It could be a 3" for damage, 5" for movement handicap.

Magic: Correct me if I am wrong. Under the current rules, CDs get 4 dispel dice. (Do they still generate 2 power dice/) If I add a High Priest, I add 2 more dispel dice. So, in a 2000 pt game, if I take a HP, then I get 6 DD, plus if I take the helm I can cap out at 7DD. Comparing that to a normal game with just 1 Lord Mage, that would be 4DD. That looks good, but if they take all mages (1 lvl 4 and 3 lvl 2), then I have 10 Power Dice, and 7 DD. To combat that I would need HP and 3 DS, each with a Daemon Weapon. I'm thinking the Daemonsmiths need to generate either 1MR, or 1 DD as well. As far as rolling badly and making the HP too weak, up his attack to 2 (in line with Empire Priests and RunePriests/Lords) to make him a little more combat orientated. The fact that your spells work 5/6 times per casting and the one time you miss, you simply lose 1I, is not too bad at all. Just witnessed a battle with a Lizarmand vs Dwarf battle, where on turn 1, the Slann Lord inside a unit of Temple Guard miscast and roll a double one as well, cost him the Slann and 1/2 of his temple guard. Now this was extreme, but other armies can have this happen, CDs cannot.

Juggernaut: lots of questions, many on the Juggernaut board.

Magic Items: Is the Hammer of Hashut the Black Hammer of Hashut? Does the Banner of Daemonic Tides also give a normal flee/pursue of 2d6, since they increase the move from 3 to 4?

Army Composition: Missing, needs to be inserted (how many lords/heros, core/special/rare per 1000 pts).
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Re: My thoughts on the CD list V2

Postby warmongerclub » Mon May 25, 2009 11:11 pm

I love your input... make everything better! lol
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