Thoughts on V2

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Re: Thoughts on V2

Postby Larro » Sat May 30, 2009 4:00 pm

It's a mere shell of itself. Ok, so it's 90 pts. Big deal. The whole purpose of it was disruption for big nasties. You don't get that now. RnF troops were never the purpose for the ES - you always just Blunderbuss'd them anyways. You need something to effectively threaten enemy movement, and the old ES did so. Right now, it's just a boring stone thrower which pales in comparison to the Hellcannon in almost every way.

If you expanded the movement penalty to the 5" template, and allowed Flyers to be hindered as well, and of course upped the points, we'd be in business and everyone would be happy. You'd have, for the most part, lowered the effectiveness of the ES compared to the 2d6" effect (avg. 7", potential for much more), for a consistent 5" template. At 110-115 pts., this becomes workable.

Seriously, compare it to the equivalent SSC with Skulls. It's flaming magical, autopanic, and -1LD, for 110 pts, or equally 90 pts. without the -1. Amazingly better than the ES. The ES needs bite, or else it becomes a Rare choice Stone Thrower in a world full of Special Choice Stone Throwers.

Something I've already mentioned which was an idea Jarrett first proposed, is to make the ES a Bretonnian Trebuchet equivalent with the 5" earthshaking template, for 140 pts. or so. That puts it in the range of the most expensive warmachines around, and lessens the earthshaking abilities from the RH book down to a constant 5", but at least ups the Strength to 10(5), and would hamper flyers. I really don't see the big debate with the ES as-is in Ravening Hordes form, so I definitely don't understand this neutering of it with these revisions.

- Larry
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Re: Thoughts on V2

Postby Aves » Sat May 30, 2009 4:07 pm

Large template for earthshaker makes sense as long as its strenght is much lower, and earth shaking shouldnt affect flyers, even if its rules wise, its doesnt make much sense, similarly as it shouldnt affect ethereal units.
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Re: Thoughts on V2

Postby Larro » Sat May 30, 2009 4:14 pm

Stop trying to interject common sense and fluff explanations into game mechanics and rules for a game that is built in a fantasy world and things rarely if ever make sense.

Once again, Kroxigors are now S4, T4. Just like a Saurus. Compare size. Does this make sense?

Does it make sense that a Bretonnian Lord with a Killing Blow vs. Large Target vow can Killing Blow a STEAM TANK? A Dragon? A BT???

Stop with the ridiculousness.

If you want the ES to effect flyers, you simply add a line of flavor text in the fluff of the ES cannon, as was already proposed by Jarrett as well, about how it's some thunderous boom type effect. Use your imagination a little bit. The rules will do whatever you write them to do.

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Re: Thoughts on V2

Postby mattbird » Sat May 30, 2009 4:49 pm

I want to try a few more games with the ES as is before I have a solid opinion. In the 1 game I got to use it, it did well as it is currently, slowing down a chaos knight unit to where I could get the charge on it. I can't imagine going back to the old 2d6", though. It would be too good in combo with everything else. Maybe 5" template, or d6" from the center...
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Re: Thoughts on V2

Postby Larro » Sat May 30, 2009 5:07 pm

You can make it a 5" template and charge 110 pts. for it, and no one would complain. It's a reduction in the power of the old one, which many whiners thought was OTT, but still better than this small template you've got now.

Just please, stop being irrational, and let the damned thing effect flyers.

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Re: Thoughts on V2

Postby Dedwrekka » Sun May 31, 2009 11:01 am

Effecting flyers seems to be the irrational opinion according to the majority here, and I wouldn't want two 5" templates in the army, this isn't 40k you know. However, an easy way to do it is the way Hellcannons worked in SoC, damage is determined with the small template, then the large template is placed with the hole on the same area as the hole of the small template, and you determine the earthshaker effect from the large template. However, the way the Earthshaker is in the CD list now makes sense, as the Hellcannon went to the same firing method in the WoC list. I personally never used the Earthshaker to slow big monsters, there were much better weapons and such for dealing with them, the earthshaker always made a great RnF slower and disruptor for warmachines. My main purpose was always to slow the enemy so that my artillery and blunderbuss could get multiple shots in before they reached me.
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Re: Thoughts on V2

Postby Larro » Sun May 31, 2009 12:15 pm

Dedwrekka wrote:Effecting flyers seems to be the irrational opinion according to the majority here, and I wouldn't want two 5" templates in the army, this isn't 40k you know. However, an easy way to do it is the way Hellcannons worked in SoC, damage is determined with the small template, then the large template is placed with the hole on the same area as the hole of the small template, and you determine the earthshaker effect from the large template.


This is exactly what I suggested with the 5" template. I didn't suggest it become a Stone Throwing Mortar. And once again, use your imagination. IF you don't want to incorporate the 5" template at all, use the Stone Thrower template, and just say that from the place it hits, units within 5" or 6" are slowed. No template involved, just like the RH book. Mark the spot, measure the radius, the end. 5" or 6" are both on average lower than the 2d6, and at least it severely curbs the radius from going insanely high and shutting down an entire battle line with an 11" or 12" roll.

If it's not going to effect flyers, then it's 100% because of personal choice by the designer, nothing more. DO NOT blame anything written on fluff. It used to effect them, and now it is being proposed that it doesn't, so I don't care what the majority seems to think because the rationale being advanced by the 'majority' is an irrational argument based on fluff and how it "shouldn't effect flyers." Why shouldn't it? If you price it appropriately, it should do whatever you write it to do, like everything else, end of story.

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Re: Thoughts on V2

Postby Dedwrekka » Sun May 31, 2009 4:27 pm

The old fluff for the Earthshaker gave very good reasons why it wouldn't effect flyers, as does the recent fluff. The Earthshaker fired a round that would bury itself into the ground and cause the ground to tremble. It was that way back in RH days, and it's that way in the more recent depictions of the Earthshaker (Gav Thorpe's Grudgebearer).

You're arguing that determining the quake effect shouldn't be changed because it changes the old list, but you're also arguing that you should be able to make it do anything you want as long as you price it.

I don't think effecting flyers is that important for the Earthshaker, and it would require more explanation than you really need for what's essentially a slightly more special cannon.
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Re: Thoughts on V2

Postby Larro » Sun May 31, 2009 4:35 pm

Dedwrekka wrote:You're arguing that determining the quake effect shouldn't be changed because it changes the old list, but you're also arguing that you should be able to make it do anything you want as long as you price it.


Yes, that's precisely what I'm arguing. The 2 ideas aren't exclusive. You don't need a fluff explanation for why things are what they are, or aren't. Fluff doesn't explain why some things are flaming attacks and some aren't, and in some cases, fluff explanations are 180 degrees apart from in-game rules when it comes to flaming attacks. The bottom line is pricing something appropriately is the single most important aspect of creating a unit. If it affects flyers too, then it's worth a little more than if it doesn't, and if it doesn't, I expect a downgrade in points cost. Does this really seem unreasonable?

- Larry
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Re: Thoughts on V2

Postby Renufus » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:16 am

Dedwrekka wrote:The Earthshaker sucks? What list are you reading?


He's got a point - the earthshaker, being a stone thrower variant, is not likely enough to hit something to warrant the 90pt expenditure or rare slot. The great thing about the ES in ravening hordes is that even if it scatters or your guess is off you can still do something with it. Look at the death rocket in RH - hardly anyone considers using it over 2 spear chukkas if given the choice, and the ES in the V2 rules is like a more expensive, rare-slot version of that with a little extra movement slowing effect if you manage to actually hit something with it. I just don't think it's attractive enough to be worth using unless it can contribute its effect more consistently.
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