Thoughts on V2

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Thoughts on V2

Postby Punk » Thu May 28, 2009 5:02 pm

I see that people are play testing many of the different units and selections from the book.

I must look at it from a Tournament perspective...so some of my thoughts are coming from what I think we will see with the CD book at the GT's.

Here are some of my thoughts...

  • It has already been covered but I remain strongly in the Camp that the Magic needs to go back to the normal selection of "Pick Lore of:" rather than a unique lore and incantation type of function. Shadow/Death/Metal...whatever it is, it will be an improvement compared to the Lore of Hashut, keep it simple.

  • I like the "Annihilators", with blunderbuss going into their own selection, but I think we know people are going to be taking min-core of 3 units of these guys. At 3 points per model more than their brothers I think the we will see 10 man units of S4 shooters walking around creating havoc on Bricks of Infantry. Again lets keep it simple, give the unit a range, every model in the targeted unit takes a hit on 4+. Max out the S of the shot at 5, so +2 for ranks max.

  • I like the Eruption Gun as an option for the Warrior unit, I am just unsure if people are willing to spend the points on one, when in all realty, find a few more points and add in a 10 man Blunderbuss unit....

  • It just seems at 8 points the warriors will be passed up for their shooting brothers....A reduction on Chaos Armor option might make them a little more seen on the tables.
    More Importantly I think "Annihilators" need to go up at least 2 points a model, @110 points for 10 guys that really just drop it on anything that is T3 it is just to powerful.

  • Daemon Eaters at 105 is just to cheap. The sheer fact that they are getting auto hits with a good S just makes them a MUST have in the army. I see people taking 3 of em and 2 bolt throwers to fill out their special and a unit of Bull Cents as Core...

  • When moving around together as a team they give such a cone of "Not moving within" zone...add them in to the Cone of Death from the Blunderbuss and the earthshakers...and you just have this negative space, a void that no one wants to fill with their units...Its just too good in combination...and for the cost of what it does...its overpowered

  • It just seems that The Daemon Eaters when paired with Blunderbuss give you 6 units that can take on most things in any army for a cheap 645 points...

  • Everything else seems pretty good.

  • In fact I think the Obsidian Guard and Golems are overpriced and all in all not so good, but I think they should remain that way.
    As a player I said maybe give the Ob. Guard something to hang, but in all honesty they are going to be passed up for Bolt throwers and Daemon Eaters...

  • In conclusion I think Daemoneaters and Blunderbuss need to go up in points...

  • Magic to the normal selection...

  • I feel that the book at the moment, it is too strong for GT play and needs to be nerfed...


I just want to digress a bit and say that first off I think everyone needs to grasp that this is going to continue until v3-v4 maybe even v5...
So to those of you who are sending me emails about how "you need to tell them to change...." or "you can not allow this at Conflict GT" please be patient for the final version...
I have zero impact on the input that goes into this book, but we all know that Kevin is working hard to make sure that the book is fair.
I have faith in Kevin that he will do just that.
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Re: Thoughts on V2

Postby mattbird » Fri May 29, 2009 10:39 am

Heya Aaron, thanks for the feedback. I think everyone is basically on the same page at this point in terms of what has to change.

Punk wrote:
It has already been covered but I remain strongly in the Camp that the Magic needs to go back to the normal selection of "Pick Lore of:" rather than a unique lore and incantation type of function. Shadow/Death/Metal...whatever it is, it will be an improvement compared to the Lore of Hashut, keep it simple.




Kevin is totally revamping the magic system.


Punk wrote:I like the "Annihilators", with blunderbuss going into their own selection, but I think we know people are going to be taking min-core of 3 units of these guys. At 3 points per model more than their brothers I think the we will see 10 man units of S4 shooters walking around creating havoc on Bricks of Infantry. Again lets keep it simple, give the unit a range, every model in the targeted unit takes a hit on 4+. Max out the S of the shot at 5, so +2 for ranks max.

I like the Eruption Gun as an option for the Warrior unit, I am just unsure if people are willing to spend the points on one, when in all realty, find a few more points and add in a 10 man Blunderbuss unit....

It just seems at 8 points the warriors will be passed up for their shooting brothers....A reduction on Chaos Armor option might make them a little more seen on the tables.
More Importantly I think "Annihilators" need to go up at least 2 points a model, @110 points for 10 guys that really just drop it on anything that is T3 it is just to powerful.


This Annihilator change will be in the next version. I tried it last night, and it's much simpler to use if nothing else, avoiding having to deal with fire zones, partial hits, etc. I much preferred it.

With the standard warrior having access to chaos armor, I don't think Annihilators will be the default choice anymore. My 20-man units w/ chaos armor and shield were *awesome* in the games I've played them. I've been fielding 2 units of 20 with eruption guns, and I have been very happy with them.


Daemon Eaters at 105 is just to cheap. The sheer fact that they are getting auto hits with a good S just makes them a MUST have in the army. I see people taking 3 of em and 2 bolt throwers to fill out their special and a unit of Bull Cents as Core...

When moving around together as a team they give such a cone of "Not moving within" zone...add them in to the Cone of Death from the Blunderbuss and the earthshakers...and you just have this negative space, a void that no one wants to fill with their units...Its just too good in combination...and for the cost of what it does...its overpowered

It just seems that The Daemon Eaters when paired with Blunderbuss give you 6 units that can take on most things in any army for a cheap 645 points...


Daemoneaters are a huge concern, regardless of point cost, which is slated to go way up. Even if the cost becomes exorbitant (150 is the current plan), the synergy between all the units is still very powerful, and IMO is the biggest concern. (I am assuming Magic will be 100% fixed) I don't know what the solution is, apart from just dropping the unit, which I am 100% against. Perhaps make them upgrades for BC characters, or rare instead of special, or str 4 hits.... :?

[*]In fact I think the Obsidian Guard and Golems are overpriced and all in all not so good, but I think they should remain that way.
As a player I said maybe give the Ob. Guard something to hang, but in all honesty they are going to be passed up for Bolt throwers and Daemon Eaters...


I totally agree.


[*]I feel that the book at the moment, it is too strong for GT play and needs to be nerfed...


again, agree.


I just want to digress a bit and say that first off I think everyone needs to grasp that this is going to continue until v3-v4 maybe even v5...
So to those of you who are sending me emails about how "you need to tell them to change...." or "you can not allow this at Conflict GT" please be patient for the final version...
I have zero impact on the input that goes into this book, but we all know that Kevin is working hard to make sure that the book is fair.
I have faith in Kevin that he will do just that.


Thanks for reiterating that, although I will correct you on 1 point. You, Corey, York, and Rob Kopp do have the biggest impact on what goes into the book. Without your willingness to allow it to be used in your tourneys, the project is for naught.
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Re: Thoughts on V2

Postby Larro » Fri May 29, 2009 1:40 pm

If you agree that Golems and Obsidian Guard are overpriced and not that good, why are there not even moderate changes, such as minor pts. reductions, in the works? You're content with just letting a non-viable choice exist when there are plenty of other good choices to take over them? This seems counterproductive.

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Re: Thoughts on V2

Postby mattbird » Fri May 29, 2009 2:49 pm

I think that the golems and obsidian guard are totally viable, just not completely points effecient. If I had cool converted models that I wanted to field of them, I'd totally fit them in and I'm sure they would do well enough.

From an army design perspective, the general feeling is that all new units should be purposefully somewhat overcosted, to avoid complaints.
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Re: Thoughts on V2

Postby Larro » Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:42 pm

But no one will take them OUTSIDE of modelling / theme, and that's something for you as Game Designer to fix.

Think about it logically. As it is, no one takes Treekin, which are significantly better and a little bit cheaper. Why would anyone take these guys? They really are as bad as their points cost, and WS3 is the deal-breaker. For the current price, WS4, LD9 and a 3+ Save would all be justified, and would make these guys a serious contender vs. the other Rare-slot units.

Again, I'm not advocating OTT at all, just reasonable for the price. In their current incarnation, they're about 10 pts. overpriced. With the bump in WS, LD and Armor, you could justify 60-65 pts. per model. As they sit now, they don't do anything that Bull Centaurs don't do better and cheaper.

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Re: Thoughts on V2

Postby Renufus » Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:54 pm

mattbird wrote:I think that the golems and obsidian guard are totally viable, just not completely points effecient. If I had cool converted models that I wanted to field of them, I'd totally fit them in and I'm sure they would do well enough.

From an army design perspective, the general feeling is that all new units should be purposefully somewhat overcosted, to avoid complaints.


Unless I'm mistaken, isn't the purpose of designing a new army book supposed to be giving Chaos Dwarf players a set of fun, competitive new rules to replace the outdated, boring, and weak ravening hordes rules? Deliberately overpricing new units doesn't do anyone any good. All this does is shift the complaints from 'x unit is too good' to 'x unit is crap,' which, while considerate for our opponents, doesn't make for a better game when these expensive units just roll over and die. Just because they're fan-made doesn't mean these units should be intentionally weaker than equivalents from 'real' army books.
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Re: Thoughts on V2

Postby Larro » Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:00 am

+1.

- Larry
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Re: Thoughts on V2

Postby Matt » Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:29 pm

mattbird wrote:I think that the golems and obsidian guard are totally viable, just not completely points effecient. If I had cool converted models that I wanted to field of them, I'd totally fit them in and I'm sure they would do well enough.

From an army design perspective, the general feeling is that all new units should be purposefully somewhat overcosted, to avoid complaints.


Inferno Golems I think land at about the right price. More than your typical ogre, but they have more strength, toughness and better armor than any ogre.
I think they stack up well for 65 points; they eat treekin for breakfast (poor treenkin don't like flaming hits). They are slower, but a lot more durable than the equally costed Yhetee. They are worse than 90 point man eaters, and better than ~40ish point ogres, so 65 seems about right.

It isn't a problem with Golems, it's a general problem with all 40mm units in the game. Elite Cav moves faster and hits harder; and you* don't have the static combat resolution to go head on into big blocks. Who see's trolls on the table as special choices when people could take chaos knights? I don't. I see the special character and trolls as core, with knights as the specials.


If new units are slightly over-costed, people will take tried and true units that opponents know and recognize as "chaos dwarf", and add in a unit or two of the new, slightly over costed things, to flavor.
You don't want the "new" units to be the mainstay of the list; you want them to be the icing on the cake.

Keep in mind the focus is a low to mid tier list. At least that's what I think I read.


-Matt
*I do happen to have the static combat res with my ogres, I field them blocks of 15.
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Re: Thoughts on V2

Postby Border Reiver » Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:01 am

It's fine to say that this is supposed to be a low to mid tier army, but then the really good options should simply not be there - giving options that are simply poor is simply a way to ensure taht no one wants to play this army.

to my mind - units of similar capabilities should cost around the same accross armies
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Re: Thoughts on V2

Postby Larro » Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:57 am

Matt wrote:Inferno Golems I think land at about the right price. More than your typical ogre, but they have more strength, toughness and better armor than any ogre.
I think they stack up well for 65 points; they eat treekin for breakfast (poor treenkin don't like flaming hits). They are slower, but a lot more durable than the equally costed Yhetee. They are worse than 90 point man eaters, and better than ~40ish point ogres, so 65 seems about right.


So to compare a Treekin vs. an Inferno Golem, both of which are overpriced (the latter grossly so, the former only mildly overpriced), you had them fight each other in a pseudo-celebrity-death-match? What does that prove exactly? Yes, the guy with the flaming magical attacks will beat the guy who is flammable. Fantastic. The real problem is that vs. non-flammable targets, the Treekin are just flat out better, and more importantly, as it stands now, almost no one takes them because they are overpriced. Where does this leave the Golems, who cost 10 pts. more and have no Ward save?

There's no reason for 55 pts., or possibly even 60, they couldn't just become Treekin, but instead of the 5+ Ward, they'd get a 3+ Armor Save, and WS4 instead of their paltry WS3. It's "fluffy," it's certainly NOT an OTT remedy, and it would make them viable in comparison to the other well-thought-out special choices in the list, to the point where people might take them.

Given the choice between an Ogre or a Golem, I'll take the Ogre almost every time, certainly EVERY time if it's a Chaos Ogre (Chaos Armor and GW = the shit), or an Irongut. Minotaurs hands-down crush any other 40mm Ogre-type in the game because of their M6 and WS4, and the fact they're only slightly more expensive than an Ogre, but significantly cheaper than these Golems. And Ushabti at 65 pts. ARE about 5 pts. overpriced as well, but their book is very old, and they have their own unique rules and a S6 non-GW attack which gives them a leg-up vs. many other heavy hitters, so they're borderline appropriately priced, and still leaps and bounds better than these Golems.

Again, this is not a question of making them too good, or OTT. It's about making them VIABLE from a competitive standpoint, and not just a modelling one. The fact that they're new is an awful excuse on behalf of the designers. The game is filled with 40mm choices, none of which are OTT, for you to draw comparisons to.

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