Dwarfs of Chaos featured on Bad Dice podcast

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Dwarfs of Chaos featured on Bad Dice podcast

Postby mattbird » Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:55 pm

Go over there and listen to Kev and I ramble on about some stupid warhammer crap for an hour, if your ears could stand such a thing. We come in at about the halfway point and don't shut up til the end.
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Re: Dwarfs of Chaos featured on Bad Dice podcast

Postby Guy In Suit » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:01 pm

Ha! I made you famous! Where is my 10% 8-)
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Re: Dwarfs of Chaos featured on Bad Dice podcast

Postby mattbird » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:04 pm

I'll give you 10% of all proceeds from the army book, how's that? ;)
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Re: Dwarfs of Chaos featured on Bad Dice podcast

Postby Renufus » Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:26 pm

Had fun listening to it, gave me a little bit of insight into what you guys are actually thinking with regards to the list.

One thing that struck me as a little bit odd was when you said you deliberately overprice stuff because it's a fan-made list and you want it to stay around the same power level as the RH list. Right now the RH list is down there with BoC and OK and I'm not sure this kind of philosophy is going to be good for the list as a whole. Maybe you can shed some light on this matter as it really seems like a backwards way of thinking.
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Re: Dwarfs of Chaos featured on Bad Dice podcast

Postby mattbird » Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:46 pm

Hi, I think the short answer is that we're looking to improve the list in 2 respects; enjoyability AND competitiveness. The current list is pretty close to where most think it should be (magic aside, which needs more testing), so please don't have concerns that we're suddenly going to change stuff to make it more expensive. We're not. In fact, many units will get cheaper from where they are now. Nothing will get more expensive.

I agree that the current RH list is awful from a competitive standpoint, to where I have had mine shelved for years. The new list will absolutely be better than the RH list in that regard, if by no other way than adding more heavy hitters such as daemoneaters, the hellcannon, bull centaurs as special, chaos armor on key combat troops, etc. The goal is definitely to make a mid-tier army, not a crap one.

Kevin's caution (and mine) when it comes to pricing new, fan-made units such as Daemoneaters is two-fold.
One, when adding powerful new units to a tough army core that has never had such things before, like chaos dwarfs, there's a certain synergy that needs to be taken into account. For instance, a chariot is "worth more" to a dwarf army, because they have a core of the army that is tough to kill, making hammer and anvil tactics better suited to them.

Two, and I think we talked about this in the podcast, is that even though it's "official", it's still a fan made list, and needs to be acceptable to play against without any complaints of overpoweredness. We need to be extra cautious in that respect. We can't come out with a list that many people would have cause to complain about, otherwise tourney organizers would have second thoughts about allowing the list to be used.

So for those reasons, some of the new stuff that really makes a dwarf army more powerful has been purposefully overcosted by a few points. For instance, you could easily see that the daemoneater should probably cost between 130-140 pts if it were part of a GW army book. But because it adds so much to a chaos dwarf army, it's bumped up 10-20 points. It will likely drop back down, honestly, along with other things like golems.

Anyway, I know that was probably long winded, but I hope it makes sense.
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Re: Dwarfs of Chaos featured on Bad Dice podcast

Postby Renufus » Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:59 pm

Thanks for the clarification, Matt! I was just concerned when certain things like Daemoneaters and Golems came up and the impression I was left with was that you guys felt they should be more expensive than normal just because of the unofficial tag. Hopefully by the end of playtesting everything is priced where it should be and there won't be any need for a 'tax' because it's a fan-made list.

In an ideal world (or at least my ideal world) the list in general should be somewhere around the Empire-Skaven power level, minus things like Stormvermin and Popemobiles which are clearly either crap or uber.

Getting back to the podcast, it was an enjoyable listen and hopefully gets the project and the Chaos Dwarf army in general a little more exposure.
Last edited by Renufus on Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dwarfs of Chaos featured on Bad Dice podcast

Postby mattbird » Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:03 pm

Yeah, I think we're on the same page. Empire-level (minus steam tank) is the goal.
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Re: Dwarfs of Chaos featured on Bad Dice podcast

Postby Larro » Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:17 am

Right now the RH list is down there with BoC and OK and I'm not sure this kind of philosophy is going to be good for the list as a whole.


Well, Birdoff thinks BoC are broken and still very competitive, so that's the wrong thing to say. ;)

And no, I'm not kidding. Apparently he ranted about the uber-potency of BoC shortly after the Colonial one Thursday night at the bar.

Ladies and gentlemen...our game designer! :P ;)

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Re: Dwarfs of Chaos featured on Bad Dice podcast

Postby mattbird » Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:49 am

I stand by it. Beasts of Chaos are one of the better books in the game. It just takes a *great* player like Larry to get the most out of them.

:lol:
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Re: Dwarfs of Chaos featured on Bad Dice podcast

Postby Larro » Thu Jun 25, 2009 11:08 am

It is my greatest hope that you stand alone in that position, though we know Ed Maule is firmly in your camp as well (though you're luckily not in his camp, i.e. Camp Douchebag, so that's worth something).

Not to devolve this oh-so-grand thread about podcasts and what not, but honestly, BoC are at the lower end of the spectrum by default. DL, VC, HEs, DEs, LM, Empire, Skaven, O&G, Bretts and WEs are all 100% more competitive. It's only after those books that you start getting into a legitimate debate about whether TKs, OKs and WoC are as good, which are discussion worthy topics. Either way, BoC are at BEST a 9th-place book, even if you think 1 or 2 of the aforementioned books after not better.

And no, it doesn't take a "great" player to get the most out of them, but it DOES take a great player to finish 4-1-1 with a chance to win both games 5 and 6 (draw and loss) against the players and lists I played at Colonial. Even a Larro-detractor like yourself should be able to admit to that. 8-)

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