Something to try for Hobgoblins....

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Something to try for Hobgoblins....

Postby KevinC » Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:17 pm

Please try out the following new equipment for Hobgoblins, which is inspired by Matt's artwork...

Hobgoblins will be 3 points, but only come with hand weapons. Shields, bows and light armour are +1 pt each. Wolf Riders will drop to 12 points, but will not come with light armour; wolf riders may have light armour for +2 points. However, these units will have the following new equipment -

Daemon Eyes
The Dark Lands is a blighted landscape of oily fumes, stinking sulfur and choking black clouds of soot and ash. This smothering atmosphere goes unnoticed by the wicked Chaos Dwarfs and indeed the indigenous Goblinoids of the Dark Lands are indifferent to its most distressing effects. Even so, the Chaos Dwarfs have developed an arcane set of goggle-like eye protection for their Hobgoblin thralls. These
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Re: Something to try for Hobgoblins....

Postby Anger Worm » Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:34 am

So +1 point for 6+ armor, +1 WS and +1 Initiative? +2 points if riding a wolf?
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Re: Something to try for Hobgoblins....

Postby Larro » Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:05 am

So once again, you've decided against 4-pt. LA/Shield Hobgobbos, and against 5-pt. 10-man Hobgobbo Archers, in favor of what exactly? Charging *MORE* for a LA/Shield Hobgobbo than a Hobgobbo with a Bow, and keeping both unit sizes 20+? I dare say this is the worst combination yet, and relegates Hobgobbo Archers to the new choice, even if ranked, and makes Hobgobbos with LA/Shield not worth it.

I think what you're failing to see here is that the purpose of Hobgobbos, much like the purpose of regular Goblins in an O&G book, is to provide a few cheap units that will at times go out of control due to Animosity. You have this fear of creating cheap units because you think Hobgoblins will predominate over CD units, when in reality, Hobgoblin units will not be winning games on their own without plenty of CD support, much the way Orcs help Goblins win. Your fear of a horde of "broken" Hobgoblins is out of control.

Again I go back to this - who in their right mind would pay 5 pts. for an Animous Hobgoblin, when comparable Human troops with the same stats, better LD, and no Animosity, cost the same thing? You're charging a premium to Hobgoblins for no reason other than your unreasonable fear that 4-pt. LA/Shield Hobgoblins are the problem, when all you need to do is make them Min. Size 20+. They're not worthless at 80 pts., so there's no fear of speedbump-mania, and they've still got Animosity, so really, I don't see the issue here.

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Re: Something to try for Hobgoblins....

Postby Guy In Suit » Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:14 am

I think this new fluff is very cool. Adding a point of WS and I along with light armour is genius, as it helps bring it up to par with the shield option.

I also like how the player is free to customize their troops from naked all the way up to fully loaded. however, once you step back and see that spread, it is tough to imagine the 6 point version as TWICE as valuable as the 3 point version. I worry this sort of thinking would push all players towards to lowest common denominator of 3 point hordes, mitigating the fun and fluffy unit of rabble.

It will be interesting to playtest, but unfortunately neither of the armies I've been playing are on a threshold where the pip of I or WS will ever matter.
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Re: Something to try for Hobgoblins....

Postby elrodogg » Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:21 am

It really just forces people to take rabble if they want a non-CD ranked unit is all. Rabble is such a better purchase, because at 72pts (20 strong + overlord) it gets it's job done. Hobgobbos at this point do a similar role but cost 120pts to accomplish it (20 strong, la, sh, full command). I don't find that hobgobbos are worth the 48pt upgrade. I just feel like people will play their hobgobbos as rabble and you'll never see a hobgobbo on the field.

Unfortunately I can't playtest this week, but will try to test this out next week.
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Re: Something to try for Hobgoblins....

Postby KevinC » Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:40 pm

Well, Ronen, if you're fine about 3-point Rabble, why do you care about the cost for hobgoblins? If you're not interested in the different Hobgoblin options and what you can make of them, that does not mean anything is wrong with them. There will be players that will like the difference and use them differently than you might. If you simply want cheap cannon fodder, use Rabble then, it's not like I'm not giving you the option of cheap cannon fodder. That's the part of the argument I don't understand. If you don't think Hobgoblins are worth it, great! Buy Rabble then. Problem solved for you.

Larry, I'm not worried about a broken Hobgoblin army, in fact, I hope some players will make an entire army of Hobgoblins which I intentionally made possible. My issue with 10US Hobgoblins is not so much how they work, but what they look like. This is a *Chaos Dwarf* army, I don't want the aesthetic of the army to be a Chaos Dwarf unit with lots of little 10-man Hobgoblin units. These are elements a designer needs to think about when designing the army - it is not all about point cost and game rules. In games terms, Chaos Dwarfs get a lot of elements regular Dwarfs don't get. In this case they have two types of slaves, a down side may certainly be that you must buy a unit of 20, rather than 10, but at least you get to include slaves in your army if you wish.You shoudl not always get your cake and eat it too.

It seems that with Hobgoblins you want the cheapest, best slaves possible (4 point slave with a 4+ armour save) and that is it. Well, you can do that with Rabble (they are 3-points with LA, +1 point for shield), though they have a catch to them (must buy the Hobgob Taskmaster and can explode). What I've done with Hobgoblins is actually make them a lot better. For 5 points you get LD6 Empire Swordsmen, that does cause panic of other units. That is a great deal, are you telling me it is not?

Every option is the army list should not be exactly what you want, the army books that give you this (i.e. Vampires, Daemons) are bad army lists.

Kevin out
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Check out my Gobbos at:http://z3.invisionfree.com/Orc__Goblin_Warpath/index.php?showtopic=28856

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Re: Something to try for Hobgoblins....

Postby method » Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:19 pm

no offense Kevin, but DUDE please let the hob archers be unit size 10.
TRUST ME i have been playing the CD for along time, and the 10 man unit of MISSLE troops look just fine with the rest of the army.

i'll concede the 5 point hand weapon /shield are fine, but rendering the med range missle option away, sucks..

imagine my regular tourny oponents.. "ok Jerry, the list elimated your two light missle options (2 units) now you are replacing them with 2 more eruption guns. (which are fan created..) on top of the 2 you field already? WTF Jerry, can you just play your RH list ?... "
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Re: Something to try for Hobgoblins....

Postby Hashuts Scion » Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:30 pm

Kevin, Matt, et al,

Since I tried a 2000 pt hob army and posted the results, I've decided to put together a 1500 pt army for a battle this weekend. Wanted to clarify a couple of points. First, with all hobs and under 2000, that means a hob hero should be the general. I have no problem with doing that, but if I take a unit of CDs and put a slaver in as the champion, his leadership is 9, and since a champion is technically a character, does that mean he would be the general? If so, that also would mean any CD with a hob chieftain is in the same fix as hob chieftain has 8 ldrshp.


The hexacon is legal for a hob hero to take?
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Re: Something to try for Hobgoblins....

Postby KevinC » Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:57 pm

Hashuts,

A Hobgoblin may take the hexacon.

As for the general, only a hobgoblin chieftain (Lord choice) as the army general allows Hobgoblin units to count as core. You are correct that the general is the model with the highest LD. So if you took a LD 7 Hobgoblin Overseer as you're general that means you cannot take any other character with a LD greater than 7, unless he is the BSB. BSB cannot be the general.

Method, I hear you, who am I to deny everyone their 10-Hobgob archers?

Kevin out
Common Goblins iz da best!!

Check out my Gobbos at:http://z3.invisionfree.com/Orc__Goblin_Warpath/index.php?showtopic=28856

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- Malekith, Prince of Nagarythe
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Re: Something to try for Hobgoblins....

Postby Hashuts Scion » Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:44 am

Kevin,

Then what you are saying, there are no such thing as an all hobgoblin army for under 2000 points. I think it would be interesting, maybe not completely competitive, for a hobgoblin raiding force. What I would think is mostly wolf riders, and bolt throwers. It's similar to an all night goblin force (which I play against occasionally).

However, if it takes 2000 pts for such an army to exist, I won't try to see if it works or not.

On the second point,
Method, I hear you, who am I to deny everyone their 10-Hobgob archers?
, does this mean you are allowing such?

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