READ ME ---> MATT'S VERSION 4 POST

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READ ME ---> MATT'S VERSION 4 POST

Postby mattbird » Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:54 pm

Hi all, I just wanted to chime in and share some thoughts with everyone.

Playtesting can be a rough process, even in the most ideal situations. People will each have individual expectations and opinions that they bring to the table, and it is impossible to have a group 100% agree on every detail of project like this. The last 2 or 3 weeks have been an excellent example of that, as even getting "internal" agreement on this new version has taken time, patience, and compromise.

While I cannot say that I 100% agree with everything in the new V4 list, I do 100% believe that it is head and shoulders better than any previous version. It is better than the Ravening Hordes list. And, without any changes whatsoever, I think it is a list that would be well received at tournaments. These were the goals we set out on when we began the project, and I truly think we have achieved them, and in many cases, surpassed them.

Yes, there are some things that are probably debatable, and they have been argued back and forth both on these board and offline, between the community testers and the organizers. In the larger scheme of things, if a unit is miscosted by a few points, or if the abilities of another unit do not seem to be all that great, these are minor details that at the end of the day do not spell success or failure of the project, regardless of your view on the specifics.

With that in mind, please consider most of the V4 list final at this stage. There have been thorough debates, and decisions made on some units that you may not be 100% happy about, but do know that your feedback has been listened to and taken into account.

On things like Golems and Sneaky Gits, these are final decisions at this point. You may love them, hate them, or be "meh" about them. That's the nature of playtesting. Neither unit is a key to the success or failure of the list. A decision has been made on each. It's time to move on and focus on other, more important parts of the book.

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Moving forward, please focus most of your thoughts and testing on the new Daemonic War Machine rules. It is late in the process to have made such a change, we know. But we hope that it will make for a better, more unique and flavorful army list. No other army has such a unique rule on such a scale, and it's a great opportunity for us to really make a mark. The rule is wholly supported by the current fluff, spread throughout multiple army books and novels, and the basic rule is familiar to most players through exposure to the Hellcannon and Lizardmen Spinodons, etc.

So just to end, thank you again for your continued involvement, feedback, and support!

Matt
jer732 wrote:Birdoff makes me want to rage quit life
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Re: READ ME ---> MATT'S VERSION 4 POST

Postby Larro » Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:20 pm

I just wanted to say that after reading through V4, though I disagree with your position on some things, mostly on Golems and what appears to be universal price increases, I think V4 IS the best CD product to date, the book as a whole looks great with the artwork, and the rules appear to be much, much tighter. I think this book will be an asset to the entire Indy GT community, and since I've been pretty critical and vocal on things I felt deserved, it's only equally fair I give you guys credit where credit is due. You guys really did a good job.

- Larry
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Re: READ ME ---> MATT'S VERSION 4 POST

Postby Renufus » Tue Aug 04, 2009 3:12 pm

You know what? You and Kev deserve a huge round of applause here. I couldn't be happier with these changes and the amount of work you guys have poured into this project is staggering. Eight thumbs up from this lover of giant hats.

My thoughts on the new list:
  • I wish there were one or two cheap magic weapon options in the 15-25pt range that aren't ranged weapons or HG only, but I guess this isn't that big a deal.
  • I've never liked magic items that only work against one specific army and I was really hoping the Icon of Dark Brotherhood would be changed so it wasn't such a novelty item, but I guess if you know you're going to be playing Dwarfs in a friendly game or something it's a fun little item.
  • I'd be tempted to change the Chalice of Fire now that High Sorcerers are back to dice.
  • I guess I can live with the current Sneaky Gits. I've never been able to get them to work but since it's clear they're not going to change I'm just going to have to live with it. I'm hoping a battle report or two pops up where they actually accomplish something because for me they've done nothing but give me headaches. Might be cool if they had a Daemon Eyes option as well but that's definitely no biggy. A poisoned throwing knives option would be awesome for these guys even just from a fluff standpoint.
  • I'd still like for Daemoneaters to lose the impact hits in later rounds and just have impact hits on the charge with Bull Centaur attacks like other chariots. It just seems...smoother that way.
  • Still a bit confused about how a character with a blunderbuss works.
  • Sad that the Core BC option is gone, I thought that was a pretty cool rule that gave players an incentive to use a BC lord... What about a BC special character who could have a rule like that?
  • I really like that there's a hobgoblin wizard now (albeit in SC form, but still). Very cool idea and makes an all-Hobgoblin army much more interesting! I could even see myself using him in a regular CD army he's so cool! The special character Lammasu also looks *really* fun, and this high praise coming from me because I'm normally very strongly anti-SC.
  • While we're on the topic of the HG wizard character, can his re-roll ability be used to cancel miscasts and cause IF?
  • Astragoth's Mechanical Locomotion rule needs to be updated (he is now I2).
  • I think you nailed Hobgoblins and Rabble. Perfect!
  • I would've been on the fence about the Daemon Engines if not for the Daemonsmith's new special rule, so I'm totally on board for the idea.
  • Still a bit confused why Hobgoblin characters pay so much for light armour? Is there a reason for this?

Really, I can't give you guys enough credit for your work here. I think this version is almost perfect and even without any changes I would be more than happy to start using this in my games full-time.

Cheers!
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Re: READ ME ---> MATT'S VERSION 4 POST

Postby BenTheRat » Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:47 pm

Read through the rules and while I have not had a chance to play test them, here are some questions you might get if I was on the other side of the table. I'm not really commenting on if I like a rule or not, or if the points are right. Just if I understand them or not.

Blunderbusses
1. Annihilators: So if you are down to US 1-4, they can no longer shoot at all??
2. Characters: Ok, I'm not seeing this one at all, why bother paying points for something that either 1, does nothing to help the to hit or strength of the unit he is in, or cannot be shot.
3. Characters: Or cheesy git puts Lord on Taurus, "oh look, I'm US 6 so can shoot my blunderbuss at your unit and hit half of them." Heck even on a Lammasau, he would be US 5.

Suggestion: Allow them to shoot as normal, str 3 weapon (AP optional), all normal modifiers apply (no long range modifier). So a small unit of 1-4 can at least still shoot, a character has rules to use. And a unit of 10 on a hill, might use this option when shooting at a fast cav unit with 3 guys left in it. Or a unit of 3 ranks might fire every rank at the giant 8" in front of them to get 15 shots at str 3 needing 3+ to hit, wound on 6's.


Daemon Smiths: Nice change, but now no drawbacks at all. Question though: The random spell for the daemon weapon, can it be defaulted. Say I pick death and get doom and darkness and am fighting VC. Horrible spell, can I default that to dark hand?

Joining the Kollosus? does this displace a guy, or is there room for 11?

Artifacts of Obliteration:
Black Blade of Obsidian: What if they have 2 ward saves? Example Wild Riders have the 6+ ward and the 5+ daemonic ward? Do Daemonic wards count? Do "dodge" wards like wardancers count? What about wards on daemons? If I hit a Greater Daemon and get through his ward, is it gone for the rest of the game? When is it destroyed? If I charge a character with a ward save, and my lord with the sword wounds him, do the rest of the models in the unit get to attack with no ward save, or does it disappear at the end of the round? Should I make him roll his saves one at a time until he misses?
Regeneration is now a special ward save, does it apply here?

Axe of Granak: This is just super poison right. Any to hit is an auto-wound. Roll for saves on the base strength.

Phantom Blade: You may want to clarify if a stat is reduced to '0' the model dies.

Hellfire Gun: No 'to hit' penalties?? Skirmish, hard cover, Way watchers special rule, buildings, etc??? Or do you just mean no modifiers for moving, multi-shot and long range?

Shard of Obsedian: Can the bearers mount be affected by spells? You have Lord on Taurus, and I hit you with a magic missile spell. Randomize and 3 hit the mount, 1 on you. Yours is ignored, what about the Taurus? If the Taurus can be affected, what about spells that affect the whole model, like Beasts cower, or Pit of Shades, or unseen lurker?

Amulet of Hashut: If the bearer of the amulet dies, does the unit automatically drop out of their frenzy? Or do they stay frenzy until they lose combat? What about if he leaves the unit?

Chalice of Fire: I know I said I wouldn't say if I liked this or not, but OMG!!! Are you guys insane?? Every magic phase I can drain your dispel pool? With no chance of it stopping, the opponent stopping it, or it backfiring in any way. And I can throw out 4-5 bound spells a turn. So a player with 5 DD can be looking at 2-4 every turn?? For 50 POINTS!! Before when the Priest lost Init points I said the Arcane apparatus was a must have item. Nope to that and add in mr. Chalice for that category.

Black Gem: I charge in with black gem and challenge your vamp lord. Your skeleton champ accepts so your Lord can make mince meat of my hobgoblins. Oops, we are still touching, so I can still gem your lord? Just checking? As now I cannot attack, no biggie, but now neither can your vamp lord and your champ as he is in the challenge with me and cannot attack me. ;)

Bull Horn: All your units rally, and can still shoot this turn? If a wizard is in there, can he then rally and cast? Would he get his Power dice? If I miscast and you use this to rally all your guys, would a wizard get to add in his dispel dice to the pool?

Hexacon: I know this has been answered, but I'd add that extra sentence, double 1's do NOT auto-fail.

Kollossus: So while there are 10 in there, no rank bonus, they are only Str 3 shot. And if they get to only 4 left up there, the unit is still US 9. And even with 1, it is US 6. So can they still shoot??

That's all I saw off the top of my head. Looks good.
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Re: READ ME ---> MATT'S VERSION 4 POST

Postby Voodoo Boyz » Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:55 pm

On the front page it should say "By Kevin 'Kick Ass' Coleman".

I haven't thought of a cool monkier for Matt yet, but I'm sure one could be come up with.

Seriously good job guys!
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Re: READ ME ---> MATT'S VERSION 4 POST

Postby WickerNipple » Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:23 pm

Voodoo Boyz wrote:I haven't thought of a cool monkier for Matt yet, but I'm sure one could be come up with.


Matt "Reach Around" Birdoff is how we know him in person.
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Re: READ ME ---> MATT'S VERSION 4 POST

Postby Urgat » Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:21 am

About blunderbusses, I find they're pretty useless against lone targets, I mean, that big unit shots at this stupid sorcerer wandering alone, and at best he takes one shot. Maybe that sorcerer isn't so stupid after all... And yeah, the rule makes it that a unit with less than 5 minis cannot shoot at all.

Rabble: probably me, but I don't understand what "may not control special features" means.

I like the deamonsmith weapon now, simple and effective.

Daemonic fury: where does the unit move if there's no enemy in LOS?

Kolossus: still not a fan of it, but obviously it won't be changed, so... What would be the base size for it?

Magic weapons:

Black blade of obsidian: I know it's pretty clear, but I'm asking for a clarification anyway: does it destroy any ward save, such as demonic saves? The BRB states that regeneration is now a kind of ward save, so does regeneration goes too?

Hell blade: there's a typo (fiery)

Phantom blade: remember that when a profile stat reaches 0, the model dies, so maybe add a cap ("to a minimum of 1")?

Armour of stone: it's a copy of the armour of Gork, but for the same price you get a chaos armour instead of a light armour...

Would be nice to have a couple magical shields, especially when you use a shield art :p

Why the firestones of uzkul, and no access whatsoever to common items?

The hexacon is really overpowered imho. You use that on the first VC incantation, and there you go!

I really don't like items aimed at just one army ( icon of dark brotherhood)...

Armylist: is the juggernaught entry the kolossus? because a juggernaught at 330 points is a bit steep :p

Others have asked, but how does a blunderbuss work for a character? Like the magic one?

If the general is a hobgob, maybe bullcentaurs etc shouldn't be special choices, considering CD core choices become rare? Imho core CD should become special, specials become rare, and rares go.

Voilou :)
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Re: READ ME ---> MATT'S VERSION 4 POST

Postby allanmcnab » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:12 am

WickerNipple wrote:
Voodoo Boyz wrote:I haven't thought of a cool monkier for Matt yet, but I'm sure one could be come up with.


Matt "Reach Around" Birdoff is how we know him in person.



He gives you a reach around? :(
"I like Weakland because he cries when I fuck him" Pete, at the conflict.
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Re: READ ME ---> MATT'S VERSION 4 POST

Postby Larro » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:37 am

Daemon Smiths: Nice change, but now no drawbacks at all. Question though: The random spell for the daemon weapon, can it be defaulted. Say I pick death and get doom and darkness and am fighting VC. Horrible spell, can I default that to dark hand?


No drawbacks at all? Much like an Empire Warrior Priest, his Drawback is his point cost, and the fact that he only gets the option of 1 Spell, as opposed to a list of a few Prayers. I really don't think at 100 pts. there's an issue. 85 was too few, but I think 100 works.

As for the Spell Default, when I spoke to Birdoff about it a few weeks ago, it was supposed to allow you to Default, though I see it never made it into the list.

So I guess I second the question - Birdoff - clarification on this?

- Larry
"Just being born means you've lost to Larro. Or haven't you gotten the memo yet?" - Nidal

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Re: READ ME ---> MATT'S VERSION 4 POST

Postby decker_cky » Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:31 am

Regeneration is now a special ward save, does it apply here?


Regeneration "works exactly like a 4+ ward save, with the following exceptions." (p.96)

"Regeneration saves are not ward saves..." (p.96)

Absolutely no ambiguity here. It's not regeneration, so it's not destroyed.
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