V4 Daemonic Engines feedback HERE!

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Re: V4 Daemonic Engines feedback HERE!

Postby mattbird » Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:24 am

DarkbloodSkullpulper wrote:Yeah, and what dwarf gunline takes a warmachine without the anti-misfire runes?

My biggest problem with the daemonic war machines is that they have almost twice the chance of not shooting (11/36 rampage + misfire compared to 1/6 chance of a misfire) without a serious benefit to back it up. They should win or draw combats against flying or skirmished warmachine hunters, but if they decide to charge a ranked unit, they are toast.


I'd say that is a serious benefit, no? They should also do well against fast cav.

Note also that as long as they are only charging a tr 3 unit, even with ranks, etc, with Leadership9/10 and a bsb reroll they will be very tough to shift.

but yes, they will rampage 1 turn each game, on average.
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Re: V4 Daemonic Engines feedback HERE!

Postby DarkbloodSkullpulper » Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:17 am

They should do OK against fast cav. Win by 1 or draw and lose to musician. Better than most artillery units, anyway. The stronger add is the fact that they cause fear. Lots of fast cav and skirmishers are not immune to fear, and that should be a big help.

The bigger concern for me is that not only do they have essentially double the chance of not shooting, but once one goes on a rampage, it is very likely that it will not shoot again in the game. It can get pulled out of a firing position, or put in a place where it can be charged, or charge into a losing combat. Seriously, I think a rampage will often be a death sentence for these guys. I don't worry about a Hellcannon going berserk, because it's going to be there until it gets beaten into spare parts.

Now, one advantage I had not considered before is that they should be able to break ranks. That definitely adds to the tactical advantage, and may be enough to counter the additional rampage hazzard. If playtesting suggests that all daemonic engines should get the unbreakable (or even stubborn) rule, then the ability to freely charge will have to be taken away, I'm afraid. Otherwise, you end up with an army full of double-duty tarpits that can really slow up the enemy advance.

I'll have to try it and see what happens, I guess.
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Re: V4 Daemonic Engines feedback HERE!

Postby DarkbloodSkullpulper » Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:20 am

Oh, and am I correct in thinking that the daemonic engines should all be on 40x40 bases? Since they use monster rules, there should be no tactical wheeling allowed when an enemy charges them, correct? Just move base to base like any other monster...
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Re: V4 Daemonic Engines feedback HERE!

Postby Renufus » Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:46 am

DarkbloodSkullpulper wrote:Now, one advantage I had not considered before is that they should be able to break ranks.


As monster and handlers, they will not break ranks unless the machine itself is US5, which it is not.

I've played one game with the new daemonic engines and my Earthshaker rampaged on turn 2, blocking its LOS to most of the enemy army, essentially taking away any chance I had of doing what I wanted to do with it for the rest of the game (slowing a large unit of Chaos Warriors). Not liking these new rules so far. The benefits are usually marginal but the drawbacks can be devastating. If you're smart about your deployment you can overcome the threats posed by fast cav and skirmishers even without the daemonic engine rules, but there's no tactical way around rolling too high on your rampage test. It just takes one more thing out of the Chaos Dwarf player's hands and leaves it to random chance, which I don't like in an army that already has to deal with animosity, Hobgoblin leadership issues, lots of misfire-and-scatter-prone war machines, and not a single stubborn or ITP unit in the army outside of a very expensive single model rare choice. Yes, it can be somewhat controlled by taking lots of daemonsmiths, but that doesn't really solve the problem, it just shifts it because now you're paying 200+ points for a war machine just to make sure it doesn't involuntarily get put in a horrible position.

Plus, it just seems kinda goofy that my old school 5th edition ES model which is clearly just a bunch of metal and wood is now somehow sentient and hungry for flesh.
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Re: V4 Daemonic Engines feedback HERE!

Postby mikkjel » Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:26 am

What about having them rampage automatically when they misfire and when it takes a monster reaction test? It could also test to rampage only if the enemy is within, say, 8 or 12", or if the crew are dead. This means that they still have a chance to misfire and be useless, but not quite as much. I also think it seems sensible that a hellcannon is harder to control than a death rocket.
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Re: V4 Daemonic Engines feedback HERE!

Postby Larro » Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:38 am

A simpler fix would be to keep the rules as-is, but give the Demonic Engines LD10.

The Engines, and ONLY the Engines.

This would decrease the chance of Rampaging, but still keep the feel of some Demonic War Machines.

Otherwise I'm afraid the course of action becomes leave your characterful CD War Machines home, and simply take 4 Bolt Throwers.

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Re: V4 Daemonic Engines feedback HERE!

Postby Guy In Suit » Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:14 am

I mean there is a LD10 general option... Not that tough to keep warmachines somewhat centrally deployed...
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Re: V4 Daemonic Engines feedback HERE!

Postby Larro » Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:56 pm

Most people taking an Overlord are taking him on a Bull Taurus.

Once again, all this rule does is screw Chaos Dwarf War Machines and Shooting. Why go through this nonsense and then have no one take your units?

You're going to see many cookie cutter armies, what with the Juggernaut being overpriced, the Golems being complete turds, and the War Machines a shell of their former selves (mainly the ES).

You want people taking Bolt Thrower and Bull Centaur spam as their obvious Special choices? Do you want the list to be completely devoid of Rare choices? If so, then I've got 2 words for you - mission accomplished.

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Re: V4 Daemonic Engines feedback HERE!

Postby Guy In Suit » Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:04 pm

I think that if you rampage and it doesn't end up as a charge, you should still be able to shoot. If I was a crazy daemon that went charging off after shit, I'd want to shoot at it too! In fact I think they should move and fire anyway, if they are basically daemons. I mean, M3, come on its a neat little trick but is in no was OTT.
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Re: V4 Daemonic Engines feedback HERE!

Postby Larro » Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:14 pm

I'd be down with that, but I don't believe the powers that be will be on board, given the way the Hellcannon itself works.

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