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Re: IT

PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:11 am
by xt828
Downloaded this from the Bell of Lost Souls blog, fantastic to see all this effort coming to fruition with its acceptance into Indy GTs.

When reading it, I noticed a lot of spelling and grammatic errors - would you like some assistance in sorting these out? If you sent me a link to say a word document format of the text, I could sort most of it out within 24 hours.

Re: IT

PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:03 pm
by KevinC
Hey xt828,

Sure, we'd love help with that! We were running tight on the deadline and it's not easy getting people to proof copy a large book like this for free.

We would like to fix these errors.

However, there is no single word document to give you, the only way to do it is by reading the actual book.

We are trying to get several people to proof it, so that it will be perfect or next to it!

Thanks,

Kevin out

Re: IT

PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:52 am
by xt828
Fair enough, I'll see what I can do. Do you mind if I offer some rewritten paragraphs? Some of the background section doesn't really make sense as written.

Re: IT

PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:04 pm
by KevinC
xt828, suggest whatever you want! Please. What kind of time frame are we looking at?

What area does not make sense?

Kevin out

Re: IT

PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:34 am
by DarkbloodSkullpulper
wow. Gorduz Backstabber is 2600 years old. That's one lucky hobo.

Re: IT

PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:39 am
by Fatzer
Hlo KevinC, I've been reading and playing around a little bit with the book, and am very impressed so far! But others here in Sweden, both tournament organizers and players of the old Ravening Hordes list, have been very sceptical. Curiously, those who are neither seem more supportive.

The resistance seem to boil down to three things, of which the first is worse than the others...

:chef: "It's not GW, and it would open the door to anyone taking their home-brews to the tournaments". The first part is hard to argue with really. It isn't. The second is not as water-proof, but still carries some weight. Nevertheless, most people seem to agree that *something* has to be done about the Chaos Dwarves, and whatever it is, it's very likely not going to be an official fix.

:chef: " I like the Ravening Hordes version better". Well that's Dwarves being Dwarves I guess... Conservative!

:chef: "It's broken/unbalanced. Nothing's got worse, everything else got better". I disagree with this, as I think that most improvements have been met by cuts in other areas. The net result is very likely better than it was before, but not anything like the inherent potential of the "Big Three" or even the not-so-big-three (WoC, Lizards, HE).

Now I'd like to ask, what is your reaction to this last objection? Personally I feel that reduced toughness on the warmachines and nerfed Earthshaker more than compensates for the addition of a chariot and an "ogre-size" infantry. But during playtest, how did the list stack up to the others?

Perhaps a designers notes would be fitting to adress some of these concerns?

Re: IT

PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:41 am
by mattbird
Hi, thanks for the Swedish report! I think it's totally fine for people to be skeptical, and you can't fault anyone for not being interested in using it, especially due to the first 2 points above. We'll try to write up a proper response later when time permits, maybe over the weekend. But the short version is that we don't want to be "pushing" it on anybody. If they like and want to use it, great! Otherwise nobody should feel obligated to.

Re: IT

PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:33 pm
by Garrett
My comment on one: It doesn't open people to bringing home brews to a tournament, because the tournament organizer has to approve what's legal to bring a tourney.

As someone who's played probably about 30 games with the book in various stages of completion, it's not a broken list. There are certainly combos that are powerful, and some nasty mechanics people have been thinking up, but by no means would I consider this list on scale with Dark Elves or High Elves, to say nothing of Vamps and Daemons. In my opinion, it's somewhere between Wood Elves and Empire in power, a little harder hitting than Empire but with a little less flexibility.

Re: IT

PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 12:02 am
by KevinC
Like Matt said above, and as described in the forward of the book, we are not trying to impose the list onto anyone. If people like it and want to have fun with it in their games great. Those who'd rather pass on it - that's all fine too.

Kevin out

Re: IT

PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:18 am
by Fatzer
My comment on one: It doesn't open people to bringing home brews to a tournament, because the tournament organizer has to approve what's legal to bring a tourney.


Well, that's true, but the objection to that argument holds some water too. I guess they are concerned of never-ending arguments about new army-lists. I do think it's overblown, but this is Sweden, so stuff like precedent and consensus tend to be really important. It's complicated!

Like Matt said above, and as described in the forward of the book, we are not trying to impose the list onto anyone. If people like it and want to have fun with it in their games great. Those who'd rather pass on it - that's all fine too.


Mattbird, KevinC, I certainly agree with that posture, if for no other reason that it is the only one you guys could reasonably take. I'm fine with that, and I think people would need time to get used to the idea anyway. Ironically, the sort of player who've stuck with the two page army-book all these years are perhaps the ones least likely who appreciate the idea of getting an update! :D

Still, what grates me is the argument that it is "unbalanced". Otherwise reasonable people are crying "Cheese!" and I think that there could be a part of the book (e.g. designers notes or perhaps as part of the introduction) where you adress that concern. Like I wrote earlier, there is a general sense that the Chaos Dwarves need some sort of update, and a gentle reminder that you have nerfed stuff as well as expanded the list could help counter all the "everythings got better"-meme.

Btw, has there been any reaction, official or inofficial, from GW?