West Coast Comp Query

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West Coast Comp Query

Postby Charlie » Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:04 pm

Okay, I know everyone here LOVES to argue about comp, but having just moved to California, I am interested in some East coast opinions on something comp-related.

I'm taking part in a league down here of about 32 players, with 2250 games, where players are broken up into geographic divisions of 16 players, and then subgroups of 4 players. So you play 10 games total, 2 against each other team in your league, and 4 against a second subgroup of your division. In addition to battle points, you can also score players on sports and comp. So each game is worth up to 6 battle points, and an additional 3 sports and 3 comp. The caveat is, if you score anyone less than a 3 for either soft score, you have to justify it, and if a player receives more than one zero in comp or sports from different players, they are no longer eligable to take part in the league playoffs. So, one would think there would be some motivation not to get zeros.

So, I've never played any of my opponents before, so every game is a new experience, and I don't want to come across as a killcrazy, destroyer of worlds. Lists are not fixed, but Lord choices are. So, I'm running Skaven, with a Warlord, lvl 2 Priest, lvl 2 Warlock, and lvl 1 Warlock. The rest is pretty standard, but I'm not running a Furnace, and only one unit of Censer Bearers. Rare's depend on opponent.

Okay, my first two opponents bring soft lists, and it's a pretty even affair, maybe my list has an edge in hardness, but there's no question they get a 3 comp. My last opponent rocks up with something like this:

Slaan, Rumination, Warbanner BSB, maybe nothingn else
Engine - lvl 2, ward save item
Engine - lvl 2, not as good ward save item
2 x 10 skink skirmishers
2 x 16 skinks with 2 kroxs, standard
2 x 3 terradons
16 Temple Guard

So, after the game, I'm thinking this is a clear 0 comp army, but since I've never played this person before, and he's in my subdivision, I let him know that normally I'd zero him, but would be happy to power up my list to match his in the next fight if he didn't want to tone his down. Then I score him a 2 (because for some reason 1 isn't allowed), and let it slide. Part of this being motivated by not wanting to shaft him only playing him one game, part because I don't know which of us is the aberation in the league, my first two nice oppoents and me, or this type of list, and finally because I know someone else running lizards in the league brought the same sort of thing and got a full 3 points in comp. This makes me think maybe I'm the soft outlier, and this typ of list is the standard.

I haven't played many events this year, so I'm curious, from your perspectives, does this lizard list rate a 0 on a 3 point scale? It's missing some key items like the Wardrums and Bane Head, but otherwise only the mixed Krox units even give it some flavor.

What would it score in a 20 point comp system? Would it be a zero there, or do the worse version of Daemons and Dark Elves beat it out, and make it a 3-5 type list?

If you could score it a 1, would you do that? Since you can't score it a 1, and zero has an impact on playoffs, do you move it to a 2, or just drop the hammer?

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Re: West Coast Comp Query

Postby Larro » Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:19 am

That list deserves whatever bad score you give it. The only thing that could arguably make it harder would be cutting down the Skink-Krox or turning the Temple Guard into regular Saurus, and upping the Terradon units and adding in a 3rd or 4th Skink unit.

Mega-balls. Give it the 0.

Out of a 20, I'd say most people would score it in the ~4-5 range, for a mix of extreme gunline-ness and uber-annoying to play.

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Re: West Coast Comp Query

Postby VectorAWX3 » Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:32 am

charlie, the problem is that you didn't score the list honestly, just to be nice to the guy. You said as much yourself. And that's where player-judged comp falls down. People don't honestly score lists, since tey suffer under the inherent social contract of "let's be nice to each other". Now if this guy runs through opponents and wins the campaign, people are going to grumble that his list wasn't fair. But in the end, the people grumbling will be the same people that gave him 2's when they know they should have given him 0's.
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Re: West Coast Comp Query

Postby WickerNipple » Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:44 am

I'd give it a 1 if allowed. If not allowed I'd certainly choose a 0 over a 2.
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Re: West Coast Comp Query

Postby Charlie » Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:04 pm

VectorAWX3 wrote:charlie, the problem is that you didn't score the list honestly, just to be nice to the guy. You said as much yourself. And that's where player-judged comp falls down. People don't honestly score lists, since tey suffer under the inherent social contract of "let's be nice to each other".


I agree that this is part of it, but I know of a few other lists being run in the league that are comparable, if not worse, than this one, and none of them are getting hit for comp yet. This makes me think that myabe I brought a knife to a gun fight, which I could accept and move on, ratcheting up my list. If he had told me, "Hey, I'm testing this list for GT play, and it's a tough one, I don't want to tone it down" I'm happy to scale up the power level of my list to match. But, I don't have enough experience with the rest of the league to gauge what is really appropriate.

My plan from now on is to be a little more transparent with my opponents before the games, and ask them how powerful they think the list they are running is. At least then if they say it is average, and show up with something horrible, I'll feel justified in a 0 comp score.

Oddly, this was the first lizard player I've ever encountered who sincerely believed he needed a Frog and 2 Engines to compete with VC or Daemons in the magic phase. Maybe he had a bad experience somewhere, or never read the rules for Becalming Cognition, who knows.

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Re: West Coast Comp Query

Postby VectorAWX3 » Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:41 am

You didn't bring a knife to a gun fight... you brought a knife, and when someone else brought a gun, you (and others) look at it and say "what a shiny knife you have". :) You know how to comp the list. You made rules which tell everyone to give it a zero, and you're not playing by your own rules. You are experiencing EXACTLY the worst aspect of player judged comp: it's not that players don't know what's up... it's that they feel bad dinging people.

As far as the twin engine/slaan guy, whether or not he had a bad experience doesn't excuse the army list. It is what it is, regardless of who's playing it or even whether or not they can win a game with it. Just because a player stinks doesn't make his list any softer or harsher.
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Re: West Coast Comp Query

Postby elrodogg » Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:00 am

Just because there are harder 0s in the room, doesn't negate that specific army from getting a 0. If the logic of well there is a harder list in the room prevailed, then you would see only a single zero in any given event completely skewing the scoring.
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Re: West Coast Comp Query

Postby Charlie » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:28 pm

It's not so much that there are harder lists in the league, it's that these harder lists are not being given zeros by people who have played more years in the league, so I am not sure that i've got the right mentality for the league. So, maybe it's a GW style comp environment, rather than something more fluffy, if that makes any sense. Maybe zeros are reserved for only the worst of the worst, lists that would be a zero even on a 20 point scale.

Ironically, in hind sight, I think if I was the lizard player, bringing Stegs to a game you know you are facing Skaven would probably be the last thing I'd do. If anything, Skaven are in good shape to deal with this type of list, magic spam aside, but I doubt I've had an answer if he'd shown up with big block saurus and fighty characters.

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Re: West Coast Comp Query

Postby Anger Worm » Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:11 pm

While I don't think it's a 0 - lizards get smarter and harder design-wise than what he brought - like Andy said, between a 0 and 2 it's more towards the zero end.

If you thought it was a 0, you should grade it accordingly. I completely understand your hesitation to hammer some guy you just met, but I don't think it's fair for some people who brought similarly powered lists to get penalized while this guy slips through the cracks.

Just take this experience with you as the tournament continues.
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Re: West Coast Comp Query

Postby Mandzark » Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:52 pm

Hey Charlie it's Mike from the Broadside Bash (the guy with the OK).

Glad to hear that you got involved with the local group down here in Socal. It is a super cool group of people once you get to weed out the assholes. There are a shitload of them that play super competitive lists (most of them not well used), but most people just take good GT lvl armies. At least that was always my personal experience when I was leagued up with them for a few seasons! I always used that particular league as an excuse to just take one build and run through the meat grinder to see how well it could stand up to a variety of crap.

Most west coast players seem to tip the scale on the bullshit lists I must admit. I have run into more lame armies out here at some tournaments than most. But to be honest with you, I think it had a lot to do with the "flashiness" and appeal of a powerful army. Most people that bring the heat have no way to run it out here. Makes it that much more fun to play them! :P

Thankfully I have not been to an event out here and in neighboring states that has not been comped. And at all the GTs I attend each year, the ratio of people that bring total bullshit vs. competitive "good" lists is thankfully rather unbalanced. Most good tournaments have quality players that worry about each and every score, and the lists end up being strong, but hardly ott.

In regards to the SCGWLs comp. I was always pretty chapped that they didn't include the "1". But hey I supose there is some kinda esoteric reason I will not look for! You comped the army in a real good way. Is it a hard lizard list? Ya, but it could have been much worse as mr Larry pointed out. By telling him what you comped him in the way you did I feel you took the high road on all options! When in doubt tho (like you mentioned) just hit the guy up before hand and try to get on the same page. Each time I did that with the league I had a much better (and more GT styled) game.

Hope all that bullshit helps! :D
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