V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

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Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

Postby Aves » Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:31 pm

If hobos flee, then that's what they are supposed to do and I'm fine with that


Sorry to say it but u have very limited use for ur hobgobbos, Doomroar is usefull, as u can move to enemy with ur ranged units, get charged, declare flee and Doomroar and shoot in shooting phase, without being locked in in close combat.

Fist of Fire - necessary evil in the list


Again, very shortsighted, Deamonsmiths have basic S5 and 2 attacks, with this they can score good combat result for their units.
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Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

Postby DarkbloodSkullpulper » Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:28 am

Sorry, bad formatting.
Last edited by DarkbloodSkullpulper on Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

Postby DarkbloodSkullpulper » Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:38 am

Aves wrote:
If hobos flee, then that's what they are supposed to do and I'm fine with that


Sorry to say it but u have very limited use for ur hobgobbos, Doomroar is usefull, as u can move to enemy with ur ranged units, get charged, declare flee and Doomroar and shoot in shooting phase, without being locked in in close combat.


If I understand your mangled syntax, you're suggesting that I take hobo archers. That's bad enough, but then you apparently value your hobo archers enough to use a Hatshut spell to rally them in preference to using Magma or Earthquake. By the way, you can't shoot on the turn you rally.

Fist of Fire - necessary evil in the list


Again, very shortsighted, Deamonsmiths have basic S5 and 2 attacks, with this they can score good combat result for their units.


The text notes that "High Priest" as the only target, thus my question. I hadn't noticed that daemonsmiths do not have the magic weapon option, and so the spell becomes even more of a necessary evil. It's a necessary evil exactly because HP and DS have only 2 attacks each, no other weapon options. I don't understand your "short sighted" comment at all, unless you're suggesting that I intentionally get the daemonsmith's unit into a fight that he might not otherwise win, count on getting off a spell to boost his stats, and then call it "strategy". Of course I'd try to use the spell when available, but I'm not going to count on getting it to work.
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Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

Postby Aves » Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:45 pm

By the way, you can't shoot on the turn you rally.


You can with doomroar.

The text notes that "High Priest" as the only target, thus my question


Spells text was from version where only high priests had an access to lore of Hashut.



If you call my syntax mangled, i can call u short sighted, cant i?
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Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

Postby Matt » Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:49 am

Aves wrote:
By the way, you can't shoot on the turn you rally.


You can with doomroar.


Ok, so the plan is,
1) line up archers to be charged.
2) Flee charge and outrun the charging unit.
3) Fail to rally at the start of your turn
4) Flee again as you have failed to rally, while hoping to not panic other hobgobs, remain on the table, and end within range of the spell effect.
5) Cast doom roar, and hope it isn't dispelled.

The whole problem with this spell, is that you flee from charges on your opponents turn, and then have to fail to rally and flee again, before you can try and cast this.

This spell, like most that rally fleeing troops, isn't that useful. After a unit has fled from something, and then fled toward the nearest table edge, it usually is off the table, dead, or panicked huge chunks of your army. Even if it is still on the table, it may be so far out of position that it is useless for the rest of the game.


Anyone ever use "The Oxen Stands?" I've gone more than one game with never getting the chance to target friendly fleeing units in my magic phase.


If you wanted to make this spell useful, have:
Until the start of your next magic phase, have all fleeing units in range make a leadership test after completing their flee. If they pass, they immediately rally.
Figure out how good it is, and put a range on it. I would start with 18" and see how it works.

This would let you do what you want to do, flee a charge, reform and act. It won't rely on you failing to rally at the start of your turn.

-Matt
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Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

Postby Larro » Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:14 am

Agree re: Oxen Stands / Doomroar being extremely situational. They are, and I'd hardly plan around them - particularly with a list with LD9 and LD10 everywhere. In BoC, sure, it's a different story, but with these guys, it's just one of those secondary thought spells.

- Larry
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Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

Postby Aves » Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:32 am

Doomroar
The Priest
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Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

Postby Renufus » Tue Jun 16, 2009 3:15 pm

Why not just make Doomroar give a unit Fear until the start of the next magic phase? (or terror if they already cause fear)
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Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

Postby Border Count » Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:07 am

I just played against a trial army today.

I took a Warriors of Chaos army with a Sorceror Lord of Tzeentch, two Sorcerors of Tzeentch, and an assortment of Marauders, Warriors, Knights, dogs, Spawn, and Dragon Ogres.

My opponent fielded a High Priest on Lammasu, THREE Daemonsmiths, a couple blocks of Warriors with Eruption Guns, and Earthshaker, two Annhilators, and a small unit of Obsidian Guard.

To put it succinctly, I got schooled in the magic phase. I mean totally OWNED.

The army had the ability to not only cast 5 bound spells from characters, but there were also at least 2 other bound spell items in the list.

Consider this: Under the current system, magic for Chaos Dwarves is low-risk/high yield. Statistically speaking, a High Priest will not kill himself with botched spellcasting (12 attempts in a game, 1-in-6 chance of failure, -2 Initiative). Even when he does fail to cast, the first 2 failures have a negligible impact. -1 to Initiative on a Dwarf? Big Deal! Especially if the Dwarf in question has an item that bumps it up a notch. At that point, it takes four failed rolls to have an actual impact (granted that impact is death). Daemonsmiths have ZERO risk.

One of the concerns I developed is that since the spells are not all 'equal' in terms of effect or use, having them all go off at the same power level might be unwise. I also think that the if you're going to stick with having these spells be bound spells, the power level needs to come down. I also think the 'Hail Hashut' spell should be tossed. It's way too easy to spam that spell with Daemonsmiths before having a High Priest attempt his spells, and having them go off with a power level of 9 or 11. It also seems that the spell affects other bound items in the army, which can really throw things out of whack quickly.

I understand the characterful nature of this method, but I think for balance sake a more traditional method might be best. This kind of magic phase should be attempted only after VERY serious and careful planning and though playtesting in a controlled setting. My army was beaten almost single-handedly by the magic phase.
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Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

Postby Larro » Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:11 am

I understand your concerns, but I'm wondering how judicious your use of your dispel dice were, and whether you had any truly bad dispel luck. Your army brings 6 dispel dice, I imagine 2 scrolls, and puts out a serious magical output in its own right. You should be able to shut down most of the Demonsmith powers and/or the bounds depending on what you want to do or need to do for a phase. Taking a d6 S4 fireball from a banner isn't worth dispelling in a Chaos army where the enemy has d6 S5 fireballs, so what's the big deal? Cleansing Flare is a neat spell, sure, but it's 12" range, Bound 4, and no amazing effect vs. you (albeit still a very good one).

What do you do against *goog* Tomb Kings? Against Vampires? Dark Elves with a 4, 2, 2 and Dagger? Do you sit there and cry? These lists are all common and bring just as much magic, if not more, as the aforementioned CD list. Add to the fact the guy you played passed up an opportunity for a BSB (a mistake in my opinion) for a 3rd Demonsmith, and while the list was heinous, was it really any more heinous than any other magic phase built with FOUR casters could be? Have you seen an Empire army with 4 Mages, Doomfire and Rod, in action? Or High Elves with 2-3 casters and a Banner of Sorcery + Ring of Fury? Of course you have. So really, you're left with an OTT magic phase either way. You could get 12 dice just as easily with the RH Chaos Dwarf list if you took 4 casters, and then throw in stones and/or bounds which would exist in this list one way or the other (we're adding magic items after all), so I don't know that it's such a drastic difference beyond the fact that it may just seem worse because it's somewhat unique.

- Larry
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