V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

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Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

Postby Matt » Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:55 am

Larro wrote:What's the big deal with a movement spell in a M3 army?

As my gamed showed, it isn't on the M3 dwarves it is a problem, it is on the M8 Bull Centaurs.
If you limit the casting to only affect the M3 units, than I have no problem with this spell.

Border Reiver wrote:The magic phase isn't a problem - it is very much akin to having Empire with no options but Warrior Priests and Arch Lectors for options. It is not unbalanced, it is different, and although it is more reliable to cast, it is of a fixed power level and it is impossible to get irresitable force.


Except for that part that the spells go off on higher numbers, and the spells are much, much, better. The guys casting the spells are also better.

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Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

Postby DarkbloodSkullpulper » Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:17 am

Yeah, the DS should be viable in a non-magic heavy army now. I wonder if the casting value for a DS should be dropped to a 4 to compensate for the lack of risk.

The HP seems to have a good risk/reward balance to me at present. In 12 casts, the average fails would be 2, but there is a very good chance of getting 3, making him a very risky choice without the Apparatus. Even with the Apparatus, the odds fo getting four 1's out of 12 is not that improbable. The cating value of 7 for a HP seems appropriate to me.

I've forgotten how to do that math, but if I did a quick spreadsheet crunching correctly, there's a 29.6% chance to roll exactly two 1's in 12 tries. If there's an even chance of getting more or fewer 1's, then that should mean about a 35% chance to get three or more 1's. I'm not even going to try to figure out 4 or more 1's in 12 casts, but I would expect it to be somewhere around 10%.
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Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

Postby Border Count » Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:57 pm

You're more likely to roll three 1s than only two? That doesn't sound right. But that's not the point.

I have to disagree with your risk/reward assessment of the High Priest. As currently set up, he has to fail a casting roll three times (four with the Apparatus) in order to be susceptible to any negative effects. For a Dwarven 'spellcaster', I don't view -1 Initiative to be a legitimate negative effect: what are the odds that the difference between a 1 and a 2 is going to mean anything in the grand scheme of things?

Statistically, this isn't going to be a problem many players would have to contend with. In my personal opinion, this aspect - especially when combined with Daemonsmiths having ZERO risk of failure - sends the magic phase over the top. It creates a list that would ultimately cause the Chaos Dwarfs to suffer a similar problem as the Dwarfs: so many players will use only one build (High Priest and three Daemonsmiths), and it'll be one that will give few players on either side of the table much enjoyment.
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Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

Postby Renufus » Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:45 pm

It may turn out that the casting would have to go back to a regular dice-based system in order to be balanced, but I haven't really given it much thought.

One thing I do know is that the movement spell should be nerfed. 12" range, a unit may only be affected once per magic phase, and charge reactions as normal.
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Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

Postby mattbird » Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:57 pm

I spoke with Kevin last night about it, and he had plans to nerf that spell, along with toning down magic overall.
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Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

Postby Larro » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:14 pm

What do you mean about toning down magic overall besides nerfing this spell?

If you end up making the Magic phase WORSE than what you had as a baseline in RHs, meaning Dice, Metal/Death/Fire, WHY do we need to reinvent the wheel and make this ridiculous bound phase to begin with? If you're going to tone down power levels and spell potency because you're not looking at this list objectively, and are injecting subjective BS into your determinationm, stick with normal dice casting and scrap this idea entirely.

- Larry
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Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

Postby mattbird » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:46 pm

I understand your concerns. without having tested the current version, and without knowing exactly what Kev has in mind, it's hard for me to have an opinion yet. Nothing will change from now til mid-July, so keep on with the current magic rules for now. We need alot more games in to try the magic phase...
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Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

Postby Border Reiver » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:11 pm

Just finished a game with 2DS and the bound standard against an LZ army with Slaan and 2 Skink priests. Generally, I found that I had sufficient dispel dice to do what I need to do, even though I only got one spell off in the game I did not feel that the magic phase was unbalanced and neither did my opponent.
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Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

Postby DarkbloodSkullpulper » Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:08 pm

Border Count wrote:You're more likely to roll three 1s than only two? That doesn't sound right. But that's not the point.


If my math wasn't completely gonzo, you're more likely to roll 3 or more of any single number (in 12 throws) than you are of rolling that number exactly twice. I think it's relevant, because it means that if the HP keeps casting all game long, not stopping when he gets to I=1, then there's at least a 1 in 3 chance the HP dies. Compare that to any other caster in the game for miscast effects - it's even worse than the survival rate of 6th ed O&G casters. That fact should be sufficient to keep the HP+3x DS from being the default hero selection, but for the Arcane Apparatus, which really shifts the odds away from being dangerous to the HP.

IMHO, the Apparatus needs to be at least 60 points, possibly 75, before it is no longer a no-brainer.
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Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

Postby Larro » Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:51 pm

DarkbloodSkullpulper wrote:IMHO, the Apparatus needs to be at least 60 points, possibly 75, before it is no longer a no-brainer.


And in my opinion, your opinion should no longer be considered if you're going to continue spouting lunacy like this. In the day and age of the DE Dagger costing 25 pts., the Helm of Commandment costing 30, Engines of the Gods, the Ring of Fury being a bound 4 unexhaustable 2d6 S4 magic missile in a list already geared to cheap magic and magic items, and so on and so forth, you think Chaos Dwarfs should pay 60 - 75 pts. for a +1 initiative item that is, in effect, a "reroll a single casting dice" equivalent item which exists in most any other book for 20 - 30 pts.? Feel free to explain your irrational position whenever you find a basis for it, but I won't be holding my breath.

As for the magic phase as a whole - if Kevin's idea is to lessen the strength of the magic phase to begin with, I say scrap this idea entirely. There is no benefit in taking the standard magic phase, with dice and potent Lores, and changing it so that CDs only get their unique, and less-effective Lore, which less-effective casting. It's complete BS. You can't make a unique magic phase, and then make it worse than the vanilla power dice / Lores of Magic magic phases that permeate the game. Either keep the phase as is, or go back to dice, with a bound or two, and lores of Fire/Death/Metal, so that CD magic isn't a complete abortion.

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