V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

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Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

Postby DarkbloodSkullpulper » Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:14 pm

Larro wrote:And in my opinion, your opinion should no longer be considered if you're going to continue spouting lunacy like this. In the day and age of the DE Dagger costing 25 pts., the Helm of Commandment costing 30, Engines of the Gods, the Ring of Fury being a bound 4 unexhaustable 2d6 S4 magic missile in a list already geared to cheap magic and magic items, and so on and so forth, you think Chaos Dwarfs should pay 60 - 75 pts. for a +1 initiative item that is, in effect, a "reroll a single casting dice" equivalent item which exists in most any other book for 20 - 30 pts.? Feel free to explain your irrational position whenever you find a basis for it, but I won't be holding my breath.


In the context of the insanely cheap and overpowered items you mention, then yeah, of course the Apparatus should be in that same price range in order to be competitive. Inarguable, I'll grant you that. If that's the intent, then fine, keep the current cost.

Would you agree that at its current cost, the Apparatus is the default absolute slam dunk no-brainer for the HP? An increase from 65% survivability to 90% survivability on a 300 point (with magic items) character is incredibly worth the investment of a 35 point magic item. If the point cost compared to the utility of an item is ever so good that no rational player would consider not taking it, then by definition, it is undercosted.

It isn't just something along the nature of "reroll a single casting die", or "ignore first miscast". It means that, if one takes the prudent approach of ceasing to cast with a HP when he gets to I=1, then the Apparatus ensures that in at least two-thirds of the games he's in, he can cast all game with no risk. Without it, there's only about a one in three chance that he'll be able to cast all game risk-free. In other words, teh suck.

At 60-75 points, a player will have to actually make a decision about whether or not to spend his points and magic slots on the extra efficiency of the HP. It is no longer a no-brainer. Should this increase in cost to the Apparatus result in a point cost decrease for the HP? Yup, I certainly think so. Any level 4 caster who is more likely to not cast than cast in the final rounds of the game should probably not cost 200 points in the first place.

But that's just, you know, my opinion, man.
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Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

Postby DarkbloodSkullpulper » Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:26 pm

Larro wrote:As for the magic phase as a whole - if Kevin's idea is to lessen the strength of the magic phase to begin with, I say scrap this idea entirely. There is no benefit in taking the standard magic phase, with dice and potent Lores, and changing it so that CDs only get their unique, and less-effective Lore, which less-effective casting. It's complete BS. You can't make a unique magic phase, and then make it worse than the vanilla power dice / Lores of Magic magic phases that permeate the game. Either keep the phase as is, or go back to dice, with a bound or two, and lores of Fire/Death/Metal, so that CD magic isn't a complete abortion.


I'm a big fan of the somewhat unique bound magic phase, and tend to think it's on the under, rather than over-powered side as is right now. It looks to me like the CD have viable options for both a heavier and mid-range magic phase currently.

Aside from Magma Tide, I don't see anything that can reasonably be tuned down and still maintain the utility of the CD magic. In fact, I think that the Doomroar spell needs to be significantly improved for it to be useful.

The other idea being bandied about, of limiting Daemonsmiths to one bound spell, pretty much neuters them, since the spells are generally very situational, and having only one of them available makes a DS a much less flexible choice. Sure, the default could be the magic missile, but the DS become much more one-dimensional once you take the entire lore away.
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Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

Postby Larro » Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:17 am

What are the odds that a Lord-level mage Miscasting per turn? Say he casts 2 spells, 3 dice each. What are the odds?

Then, figure out the odds of him rolling the doubles 1s, which are 1 in 36.

So it's that method of exploding, vs. the current "roll a few 1s to cast and die" that the CD HP has at the moment. Sure, there's no other types of miscasts, as in S2, S4, S6 or S8 hits, but who cares? The odds of you miscasting so many times for those varied-strength hits having any real impact and ever killing a 3 wound Lord-level mage are so minimal that it's almost irrelevant. Yes, the Apparatus becomes a no-brainer, but why is that the Chaos Dwarf player's fault? It isn't. It's the fault of the game designers. There shouldn't be a bound phase that turns your 300 pt. + 100 pt. general bonus Lord to stone. Sorry, there shouldn't be. If you want it to exist, for fluff reasons, then the apparatus exists, to help mitigate it.

And you're 100% wrong about it not being equivalent to an Ignore First Miscast. The odds of miscasting on 3 dice from a Level 4 Mage 2x a turn is something like 1 in 5. So if he miscasts 2 times a game, it's huge to ignore one of those 2, coupled with the fact that it's 1/36 to die from those 2 to begin with, means that the CD HP is more likely to die than a Level 4 Mage is, especially without the Apparatus. Does that make sense? That we should have a higher likelihood of exploding than a regular Dice-mage? Because it makes way less sense to me. If that's the case, give me the dice, and give me game-winning spells like Doom and Darkness and Spirit of the Forge over this BS Doomroar and Fists of Fury lore.

And this isn't opinion - it's fact. The CD Lore is worse than Metal and Death as it is right now. Increasing the odds of exploding compared to a Dice Mage is just another unnecessary straw to break the proverbial camel's back from this camp of "CDs should be underpowered." If you're going to make the army WORSE than the current RH status, you're not doing anyone a favor and are only furthering your own self interests.

- Larry
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Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

Postby DarkbloodSkullpulper » Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:55 am

Hey, I think we're on the same page here, Lar, no need to get defensive. I think you're misreading me. My own self interest consists primarily of having a good balanced CD list with which to whip your ass in next year's GT season.

Also, note that I didn't say the Apparatus should be 60-75 points, but said it'd need to be that high before it was not a no-brainer.

In a different thread last month I brought up the huge chance of a HP or DS dying, and threw out the idea that they take a LD test rather than having a straight 1:6 chance to lose Init. At a 10 LD, that's 1:12 rather than 1:6. See my other post in this section today showing the math in the current scenario. High Priests have a huge chance of dying from their own magic - I'd say an unreasonably high chance. As I noted earlier, it's even higher than the O&G 6th ed book, which was brutal to greenskin casters.

I am 100% not wrong about the Apparatus being significantly different from "ignoring first miscast." There is no comparable game mechanic to which you can compare it. Given the unique nature of the Lore of Hatshut casting, the Apparatus is a total necessity and any HP without the item is not worth taking.

I'd agree that I muddled matters by positing a 60-75 point cost to the Apparatus, without explanation. That would only ever be reasonable if the current HP cost was dropped to the 150 point range or lower.

I was thinking about having an expensive and effective HP build vs. the option of taking a less casting-oriented one that maybe had other tricks or was significantly cheaper... Meh. Too much trouble. Keep the Apparatus as a gimmie for the HP at 35 points.
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Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

Postby Larro » Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:06 pm

Fair enough. Good post all around. Glad to see we actually do agree re: the CD HP. I thought you were upset that its a no brainer and so cheap because it was somehow game-breakingly good, when all it really does is counter-balance a poorly thought out and overly risky magic phase.

- Larry
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Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

Postby Hashuts Scion » Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:30 pm

I agree with both Larro and Darkbloodskullpulper in that the magic phase is risky. I do not agree that it is necessarily a poorly thought out list or method. In every battle, I have taken the apparatus as it is indeed a no-brainer. But, I have been also lucky in that I have never rolled more than 2 ones in 5 games so far with the list (the ones with a HP).

I am hoping to see a list that is competitive, but also unique. This is why I am so hyped on this new magic system. Yes, it is similar to TK, but the HP has a chance to miscast (i.e, a 1, which means a -1 I) which is different. It is similar to prayers as they work like bound, but the lower users (DS) do not generate a dispel die, nor does the High Priest generate 2, rather 1.

As stated before, I want playtesting to determine how much I like or dislike it and not some opinion (although I do credit those who have played in Tournaments and hundreds of battles to have a viable opinion). I have found that actually using the rules in play seem to generate more subtle combinations than just looking at it.

Although I have used the original lists, I think this will generate more hype (good or bad) than just a revisit to the past.
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Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

Postby elrodogg » Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:59 pm

I think you guys are on to something here. I would like to see the 5th spell (fists of fire), get shifted to the demonsmith only. Then give the HP a spell which allows him to recover a pip of initiative.
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Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

Postby Larro » Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:19 pm

That's a fantastic suggestion Ronen, and does away with the automatic need for the Apparatus.

- Larry
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Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

Postby Hashuts Scion » Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:33 pm

I actually found the spell useful in my battle against the Beasts. My HP was responsible for taking out a unit of 20 Beastigors with the added attacks due to CR. It is also a deterrent to charge him if he has it up as he now has 5 S6 attacks. It gives the HP an alternative to being just a mage.
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Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

Postby Renufus » Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:06 pm

I wouldn't be opposed to Ronen's idea. You could even change Hail Hashut! to be the HP-only spell that recovers a point of I. That way Kev gets his nerf to the bound magic and the Apparatus doesn't look like such a no-brainer. It would sort of be like the Bloodgruel spell for Ogres.
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