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Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:52 am
by elrodogg
Guy In Suit wrote:This would still have that... imagine being down to one pip of Initiative and casting Hail Hashut to get one back and rolling a one! :lol:


My comments were more directed towards Larry, who was arguing that no other lord level choice suffers from a 1/6 chance of their lord's spells not being cast. Well that isn't true. DWARFS have the same problem with the anvil. 1/6 of the time it doesn't work on the equivalent of a hero level power, and 50% on a real lord level power. Yes i know the anvil can't be dispelled, but the dispel argument is total crap. The list we're putting together if someone goes the magic route will have 5 or so bound items in it, so by sucking 2-3 dispel dice it can be just as good as going off.

Point is is that there are lord choices, specifically ones we should be modelling this list's own choices after whose powers don't work 1/6 of the time (they also cost a hero slot and has a misfire table to roll on as well btw). Dwarf Lord's Chaos cousins shouldn't have a vastly choice for far fewer points.

Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:27 pm
by Larro
I was only saying that aside from the possibility of dying, you've got a 1 in 6 chance for spell failure, which is higher than most Lord spellcasters have per cast attempt, and I think it's being overlooked as if it's not a drawback. Everyone is clamoring about reliability, and sure, you lose Init and it takes some deviation for it to kill you, but in turn you need to burn Spells to heal yourself if you choose to, and you also still always fail to cast on a 1 in 6, so it's not like the CD HP is overpowered by any stretch of the imagination.

As for the suggestions, I've been saying for days now to keep this movement spell to CD Infantry, BCs excluded. Make it 12" range, whatever. I do like the no-charge reaction bit, since I think it makes up for the fact CDs move 3/6" and still only charge 6".

- Larry

Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:53 pm
by mattbird
Larro wrote:
As for the suggestions, I've been saying for days now to keep this movement spell to CD Infantry, BCs excluded. Make it 12" range, whatever. I do like the no-charge reaction bit, since I think it makes up for the fact CDs move 3/6" and still only charge 6".

- Larry


I believe this is being considered.

Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:29 pm
by Border Reiver
I'm not getting the hate that some people have for the Magma Tide Spell/prayer (whatever we decide it is)

These are the movement and movement affecting spells:

Lore of Beasts
Beast Cowers, Cast on a 7+, affected Enemy cavalry, swarm, chariot or monsters can't move or fight
Wolf Hunts, Cast on a 9+, move afftected unit 2d6", counts as charging, normal charge reactions

Lore of Life
Mistress of the Marsh, Cast on a 5+, Affects all units within 12" of a water feature

Lore of Shadow
Steed of shadows, Cast on a 5+, affects a single model on foot, but moves it anywhere on the board
Unseen Lurker, Cast on an 11+, 12" range, unit makes a normal move/charge

Wood Elves
Treesinging: Cast on a 4+, Moves a wood feature 1+D3" (including any unit completely in the feature)

Vampire Lore:
Van Hels Danse Macabre: Cast on a 7+, Move a unit within 12" a normal move, if charging into a enenmy normal charge reactions. Affected Unit is ASF

Skaven
Skiterleap: Cast on a 4+, Move a single man-sized model within 12" of the caster anywhere on the table.

Lore of Nurgle (Daemon)
Pit of Slime: Cast on a 7+, Affected unit must pass a Strength test or no movement

Little Waaagh
Hand of Gork: Cast on a 9+, Moves a unit 2D6", normal charge reactions

Big Waaagh
Waaaagh: Cast on a 12+, move all units 2D6", rerolls in HTH, units in HTH get ASF

Tomb Kings
Incantation of Urgency: Casting level and range depends on who is casting, unit can make a normal move, counts as charging, normal charge reactions

Lore of Ice
Form of the Frost Fiend: Affect model can now fly, and has bonuses to S and A

Dwarfs
Rune of Oat and Honour: Activated in the shooting phase (and thus cannot be dispelled) and allows either 1 or D3 units anywhere on the board to make a move, march or charge

Lores of Death, Fire, Heaven, Light, Metal, Tzeench, Slaanesh, Mortal Nurgle, Mortal Tzeencth, Mortal Slannesh, High Magic, Dark Magic and Gut Magic: no movement affecting spells


Looking at the effects of the Magma Tide spell, other than the addition of the rule that a unit can only be moved magically once per turn and to allow charged units to choose their charge reaction normally, I see no reason to change it. Other spell lores have the capacity to move units a far greater distancel and usually convey other benefits to the unit if it charges.

With respect to Earthquake - most other spells that reduce enemy units do not allow movement at all, or are terrain dependent with a lower casting value. Again, not seeing the need for hate for this spell.

Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:08 pm
by Larro
After reading your post, I've come to the conclusion that you're right, and once again, this seems to be Birdoff's overreaction (as well as others) to a spell in a list full of M3 infantry.

As for Earthquake, nothing better happen to that spell because by movement-inhibiting standards, it isn't even that good. It's a rich man's mistress of the marsh.

- Larry

Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:13 pm
by Zhorn
While i agree with you (Larro and Border Reiver) on a theoretical basis, that the movement/anti-movement spells are in line with other similar spells from other armies/lores and thus do not seem overboard - the gaming table tells me otherwise.

In it's current incarnation the CD army is able to extensively control movement across the board. Up to 6 movement slowing effects per turn in 2000 points IS harsh. Or up to 4 magically charging bull centaur units per turn. (I was able to totally dominate the movement in a game vs. dark elves of all foes and i only used 2 DS and a single earthshaker.)

Secondly, and this is important at least to me, the feel of the magic phase. Playing the movement game is all fun and cool (as long as i'm not on the receiving end of it) but it felt weird. It felt like khemri. NOT dwarfs gone mad turned demon engineers.

I fully understand that you two don't want to neuter a cool concept and i do think if the movement/anti-movement spells get reduced that the CD army needs a lot of "compensation" for that. Also see my outlook in the bat rep i posted.

Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:22 pm
by mattbird
Larro wrote:After reading your post, I've come to the conclusion that you're right, and once again, this seems to be Birdoff's overreaction (as well as others) to a spell in a list full of M3 infantry.


- Larry


WTF? I was agreeing with YOUR suggestion!!! You are an idiot. :lol:

Larro wrote:As for the suggestions, I've been saying for days now to keep this movement spell to CD Infantry, BCs excluded. Make it 12" range, whatever. I do like the no-charge reaction bit, since I think it makes up for the fact CDs move 3/6" and still only charge 6".

Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:27 pm
by Larro
Limiting the movement to the 3 infantry CD units - Warrior, OG and BBs, would solve your movement catapulting worries.

- Larry

Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:55 pm
by Bleyden
I really like the whole "lots of bounds" magic phase. I also like the petrification on a 1. I think Daemonsmiths shold have some negativity (such as take a Ld test to combat the Daemon in the weapon) or else they can spam Magma Tides all day.

Here are my ideas for each spell
Doomroar - Make 1 unit cause fear (or terror) as this is more useful and so might be used more. Could make them have Hatred instead
Magma tides - 12" range. Unit can only be cast on once
Lava Storm - Great, not too overpowered
Fists of Fire - Great, means DS and HP arent fodder come combat
Earthquake - Great, like the smaller range so cant be spammed for gunlines (which are evil)
Hail Hashut - Too overpowered. I kinda like the "gets back I" idea. Could be for HP only. I understand this is meant to be like Power of Darkness, I just dont like it.

Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:07 am
by Matt
Border Reiver wrote:I'm not getting the hate that some people have for the Magma Tide Spell/prayer (whatever we decide it is)

These are the movement and movement affecting spells:

You left out the Beast Arcane item that grants the additional spell: "The Wild Call". 12" range, free charge for Beast Herds, Bestigors and Chaos Hounds. NO Charge Reaction.

That's actually the only "No Charge Reaction" spell left in the game (I can't find any others). I'd bet their is a reason that previous "no reaction" spells have been swapped out for "Hold or Flee" or "Normal Charge Reaction".

The "hate" for Magma tide is two games against a maxed chaos dwarf magic phase, where two large units of Bull Centaurs were magically thrown into the flank with no charge reaction allowed. Changing this to Dwarves/hobgoblins only, would help a lot. The best solution may be Dwarves/Hobs only, and the target may hold or flee (no stand or shoot). I think it is a good middle ground for the spell. In both games, early turns consisted of gun-line play, bombarding with warmachines (4 bolt throwers, 2 earth shakers), along with the slow moving spell. Once this burned through dispel scrolls (it doesn't take long), Centaurs advance and get magically spammed into combat. In both events, this crushed the flank and rolled into the center.

I've played with this, and against this, and it seems too good, and requires extremely simple tactics.