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V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:34 am
by mattbird
comments here!

Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:41 am
by elrodogg
I love the current version of the magic phase, but...

1- The magic movement spell has too long a range for this mode of casting. 3 guaranteed casts of it in my game made for 18" range being too solid for mid-lower tier magic. Recomend reducing the range to 12"

2- With demonsmiths getting access to the lore with no penalties (like initiative tests to turn to stone), the High Priest almost needs a bump. I recomend he continue his 2+ rolls, but his spells go off at bound 7.

3- demonsmiths know all the spells in the lore, correct?

Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:55 pm
by Larro
Agreed re: HP's spells going off at a 7 as they did in the original version of this list. As for magical movement, I can get on board with 12" range a la Vanhel's. The army should be playing relatively tightly anyways, so 12" shouldn't be too much of an issue.

- Larry

Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:19 pm
by Anger Worm
I also suggest 12". After being on the receiving end of 18" in my game with Ronen I felt that the army had a nasty amount of incredibly flexible, reliable movement magic. 12" at least keeps you playing tighter, and you can't necessarily spam 3 bound moves on the same unit unless you very deliberately mind the range.

Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:01 pm
by KevinC
Guys, HP spells are still bound level 7, is this your mistake or am I not understanding what you're saying?

A reduction in range for the movement spell sounds good, though I'm concerned either way it is too powerful. Perhaps it should only effect the caster and the unit he is with.

Thoughts?

Kevin out

Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:27 pm
by Aves
Kevin, Dwarfs used to me totaly unplayable as close combat army before new Anvil of doom came out, with posibility to move some units.
This spell is in my oppinion essential in the way CD will work, restricting it sounds good, even more than good, but without forcing players to play on HP's and deamonsmiths only.

So maby limit its use on Chaos Dwarfs units only, motivated with the fact that why would a mere goblinoid receive blessing from Hashut?,
Also any unit could be affected by it only once per magic phase.
Also since magic is before shooting, its kinda scary to move Anihilators by another 6" , or deathrocket just to the flank of fast calvary that would charge it next turn.

Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:28 pm
by Larro
That sounds like a horrific idea. If you neuter the movement spell, you're basically paying all those points in Magic for a lore that provides what? d6 S5 fireballs? Big deal. You already worsened the fireball from 2d6 S4 to d6 S5, 1 of the spells is a HTH spell only. The other one makes you rally (it's great to have a rally spell in an army that probably can't even flee to begin with due to its -1 flee rule and has LD9 - LD10 on rally checks! :roll:). If you scrap the movement, you've got very little substance remaining in that Magic Lore, and it suddenly becomes not even close to Fire, Death or Metal.

- Larry

Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:34 pm
by Aves
Doomroar is not for dwarfs, its for shiedloads of green trash thats runs around the field, and it has 24" range around the caster, so 48" potential, very usefull as in situation like,

Hobgoblins find themselves near Terror causing unit
Hobgoblins fail Ld test
In movement phase Hobgobins run
In Magic Hobgoblins are back
In shooting hobgoblins can spit on their hands for incomming charge next turn as they are most likely shielding more important units, and they have to take only 1 Terror test per game.


Also remember that Magic is before close combat so deamonsmiths dont need magic weapon if they happen to be in CC.

Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 12:42 am
by Matt
I was on the receiving end of the magic this time.
It's hard to comment on just the magic without including the synergies that the list gives you... so, here we go.

This was my experience with the magic phase.

Bull centaurs are fast (M8) and hit really hard (2 S6 attacks each). With the option for chaos armor and shields, your opponent is looking at T4 3+ saves vs shooting.
This let the Chaos Dwarf player move up a bit on turn 1, safely hidden behind crap troops (like rabble that doesn't test for animosity). Turn 2 in the movement phase, the screen moves clear and the Centaur advance and wheel in toward an enemy flank.
Following this, the chaos dwarf player spams movement spells and throws the super hitting unit into the enemy flank.

The magic phase went: B7 for +2 to all remaining bound spells (Dispelled with scroll), B4 (D6 S4 hits, I took it), B5 movement (dispelled, dice) B5 movement (dispelled, dice), B5 movement (scrolled), B7 movement (2nd spell from the priest). (turn 1 was lots of slowing movement spells, which took out my other 2 scrolls).

Bull Centaurs hit my flank. I had no option to flee. They blow through the saurus they are facing, and over-run into a 2nd unit which some hobgoblin wolf riders had hit in the front (expecting the bull centaurs to come into the flank). The hero in the wolf rider unit uses the black gem to take my scar vet out of the fight. Again I lose combat by a fist full, and the wolf riders run me down.

Very simple tactics, combined with an overly powerful spell destroyed a ton of points (~600+ points) on turn 2.


My suggestions:
1) Limit the movement spell to 1 success per unit per turn. Moving a unit more is a bit too much.
2) Let opponent take a normal charge reaction. If I could have chosen to flee, I would have clipped the wolf riders and still lost the 1st unit, but at least the 2nd block would have survived (with bull centaurs looking down their flank). It looks like all of the newer magical movement spells allow for "normal charge reactions".
3) Think about limiting the target of this movement spell to "Chaos Dwarf". My game wasn't against chaos dwarves, it was against bull centaurs, wolf riders, and rabble. It didn't feel "dwarfy" at all. Making it dwarf only will allow for melee dwarf to get a charge off, and maybe make that a viable build.
4) The lack of miscasting is appalling. Any other army trying to get a movement spell off on a heavy hitting unit is going to have to roll a lot more dice. Vampires are throwing 2 to 3 dice to try and get a movement spell off. Lore of shadow is needs 3-4 dice to have a good shot, and 3 dice for the lore of beast movement. Any other magical movement has some risk; quite a bit of risk if you try it 4 times in a single magic phase. Tomb kings are the exception, but they are off set by not ever getting to march, and not having anything move nearly as fast or hit as hard as Bull Centaurs.


The movement slowing spell is pretty good too. Drop a ton of slow effects as you close in, then switch to movement for the flank charges. I can't comment on the other 4 3 spells in the lore. I only saw the bonus to cast, free move and slow move the whole game. No reason to try and get a D6 S4 hits when you can magically induce 12 WS4 S6 attacks on a units flank. If a unit gets the magical slow, and then gets clipped by an earth shaker, does it halve it's move a 2nd time? I don't think it should, but the spell doesn't state that.


As magic gets balanced, it's important to keep the melee option open for chaos dwarves, even if it means magically enhancing units for melee. I'd much rather fight the magicked-up melee dwarves then face the earth shaker magic slowing gunline.

The problem with magic going off on static numbers is that if your static total is high enough, you'll always get spells off. If it is too low, you'll almost never get spells off. You take away the chance of the chaos dwarf player rolling well and slipping a spell through overwhelming defenses.



I'm not fond of the bound spell magic phase at all. But, if you do want to keep it, I think I have an idea on how to add some risk back in. If your opponent rolls a pair of 6's (without a pair of 1's) to dispel a high priest or a daemonsmith, not only is the spell dispelled, but the caster must also roll on the miscast table.
Hashut Punishes Failure! This does change the dynamic of the magic phase, and it might be necessary to adjust some things to make magic viable.




If you're wondering my perspective on magic; I've run my ogre kingdoms very successfully with MR3 on one big unit, and the spell redirecting banner and the cause miscasts helm in another big unit; with no other magic defense. Points saved on not buying wizards with scrolls added "RANKS" to my ogre army.
I've also run my skaven with 13 power dice, 7 warp stones, and 3 bound items. (killed 25 ghouls in a magic phase, then shot to death a vampire lord on turn 1).

I can say I have a good grasp for the full range of what is possible with magic. "normal" will vary by the group you play with.


-Matt

Re: V3 High Priest and Magic comments here

PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:56 pm
by DarkbloodSkullpulper
I think the magic phase is coming along nicely. We're down to one direct damage spell in the list, with all of the rest being support spells, basically. The basic mechanics seem about right, though the 1 in 6 chance to fail for the HP is a greater chance than I'd like. A Ld test to control the daemonic forces or something would result in a 1 in 12 chance to fail for the HP and 1 in 6 for daemonsmith, or 1 in 12 if near the general. With a 1 in 6, casting max every phase, the HP has about a 50% chance of dying during the game and if the fail chance is brought back for the DS, then they are also about at a 50/50 chance of dying from casting.

Doomroar - not a spell that I expect to use much. If CD flee, they'll generally rally on a 10. If hobos flee, then that's what they are supposed to do and I'm fine with that. Pretty much the only time I'd anticipate using it is if some CD fled on my turn from terror or I had a rare rally-fail and that unit is in a vulnerable spot for getting charged next turn. Maybe if it could be used even if the unit was below minimum unit size, then that would add some utility.
Lava Storm - this works. The CD need to have at least one ranged magical attack. d6 s5 and 24" range is good.
Earthquake - Also a good spell choice. I thought that having damage from an earthshaker as well as the shaking effets from the shot were a bit much. Just wish it also affected flyers. I also think the range is a bit too restrictive here. I'd rather have it 24" than 18". This is offset by the ability to use it without needing LOS, and if there were a choice between no LOS or longer range, I'd take the lack of LOS requirement every time.
Hail Hatshut - Nice option in a heavy magic list. It's a trade off to use one of a limited number of available castings in order to improve the success of others. Considering that the "heavy magic" CD armies will only be able to cast 4 or 5 spells from the Lore of Hatshut in a turn, max, it's well balanced. I might be tempted to make it +3 to bound value rather than +2, but that might be putting the lore up beyong low-to-mid tier range.
Fist of Fire - necessary evil in the list. Probably won't get used much, and when cast, few opponents will let it get off, but I think you've got to have it available as an option. Seems appropriate to restrict it to the caster himself, but it's a bummer that it can only be attempted once per magic phase. Can daemonsmiths use this? Not that I'd want to, most of the time, since daemonsmiths have access to magic weapons already.
MAgma Tide - this is going to get the most comments and attention in this list, both because it's the biggest change but also because magical movement is a game-changer. No LOs to an unengaged unit should be correct. Needing to take psych tests to make a charge is a good thing. The limit of a 6" move is also probably a necessary nerf. Keeps hobos or CD w/ banner of daemonic tides from taking a full move, and restricts the ability to have bull centaurs come surfing to the rescue from way far away. As others have noted, the big choices are going to be 1) Limit to dwarves or no? 2) 18" range or 12" range? and 3)Allow enemies a charge reaction?
1) Limit to dwarves (or better, dwarves and BC) is probably an appropriate tactical limit, but I wouldn't find it broken if goblinoids are also allowed to be moved around. Fear tests are still required, after all. Moving warmicahines for better LOS is cool, in theory, but using the spell to get a charge with a Hellcannon could be nasty. Moving daemoneaters or siege towers also seems like it could be overpowered. Perhaps rather than limiting to dwarves, it should be limited to infantry units.
2)I really liked having the 18" range available, because the casters are so slow. 12" shouldn't be a huge impact, but 18" meant that I could reach out the the bull centaurs who were lurking inthe flanks to try for some game-changing charges when I absolutely needed them. I would keep it at 18" because it allows the CD player to stretch a bit and not keep all of his army in a compact little bundle.
3) Should be a no-brainer to allow charge reactions. While in 6th ed, there were a number of move spells that didn't allow a reaction, to my knowledge, this has completely been removed from every magical or non-standard move in 7th ed. While there are a couple of magic items that remove enemy charge reaction options, there is otherwise uniformity in allowing charge reactions to non-standard movement effects.

Overall, it seems like a solid magic rule set. I can see lots of tweaks that I'd add if I wanted to make it more competitive and give the CD player a chance to dominate the magic phase, but right now the odds of doing that seems to be fairly controlled. Oh, one other gripe that people will have with the Magma Flow is that CD will have multiple chances to cast - that's true, and to compensate, I'd suggest that daemonsmith casting be moved back to having a chance to fail and lose initiative.