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Re: Chaos Dwarf Warrior comments here

PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 1:29 am
by Garrett
Well, it's distressingly not hard to do that, unfortunately for dwarf players.

I think any attachment, or perky bits, should be tied to a minimum size for the dwarf unit in question, either 15 or 20, to cut down on min-maxed gunlines or MSU sort of shenanigans.

Re: Chaos Dwarf Warrior comments here

PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 12:18 pm
by MantisZero
Garret said "shenanigans" :lol: :lol: :lol:

Re: Chaos Dwarf Warrior comments here

PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 3:22 pm
by Garrett
I did in fact say shenanigans. They're generally of the funny and amusing kind, though, not Farve-style sad and tragic ones.

Re: Chaos Dwarf Warrior comments here

PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 6:07 pm
by gjnoronh
I like point 4. Maybe have a volley fire that is the 12" template and a concentrated fire that rolls dice equal to the number of models in the front rank( still get S bonus from ranks). So 5 wide can fire 5 shots a dragon with +1 to hit it S5 if they have the ranks. That is pretty nice


I agree with Todd that mechanic in fifth ed made it important to think about depth vs width of a unit and made a big unit of twenty something potentially useful unlike most guns.

If less wide missile weapon formations have a benefit it also means they'll be easier to jam in around other bits without losing missile effectiveness.

It may just be this red berserker CD army list I've been dreaming about the last few months but I can see WoC marks being part of the options.

Gary

Re: Chaos Dwarf Warrior comments here

PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 7:36 pm
by mattbird
mark of hashut! good idea.

Re: Chaos Dwarf Warrior comments here

PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 6:41 am
by grotsnot
mattbird wrote: When within charge range, the frenzy forces them to jump out

Re: Chaos Dwarf Warrior comments here

PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 3:17 pm
by Zhorn
Hello everybody. When Asger and me tested different chaos dwarf army rules way back in 6th ed. i came to several conclusions concerning warriors and blunderbussers:

1) Bog standard CD warriors need either a special rule (eg. like an army wide rule, mark of hashut, stubborn on first CC or whatever floats your boat) or special equipment (eg. chaos armour) to be worthwhile. This should be simple to implement and easy to remember while avoiding "special ruleitis".

2) Blunderbusses are very effective vs. big mobs of infantry - an already endangered troop type - while being worthless vs. everything else. We tested a bit with BB hitting for unit strength instead of models. This made BB extremely potent vs. a lot of opposing units with the exception of the most heavy cavalry. Asger opted therefore to reduce the strength of BB to 2-4 (AP). Otherwise, the "hit for US" did feel a lot less biased against already easily defeated units and made for excellent flank coverage, esp. vs. pestering light cavalry. ;)

I'll see if i get my old machine back up and running, there should be plenty of already tested material on it regarding the chaos dwarfs.

All the best,
Z.

Re: Chaos Dwarf Warrior comments here

PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 9:20 pm
by Matt
I was also thinking 1 shot per unit strength; which would actually do something vs monsters and ogre sized critters. It has no increased bonus on infantry.
The real problem is, it gives you one more reason to NOT take chaos dwarves with anything other than blunderbusses.
Is 2 shots at S5 too good against cav? What if it was 13 points per model, making S5 fairly pricey?

The basic Hob Goblin is so much cheaper, I believe you are better off thinning the enemy with fire, then sending in Large units of cheaper troops for the Static 5 combat res.
Taking a full sized block of dwarves, when you could be using 3 point rabble, is just silly. They still get the LD10 from the general, so the advantage of T4 and 1 better armor, isn't really worth the cost.

Given the weapons and units, Chaos Dwarves just feel like an army list that will punish infantry, and struggle against the rest.


-Matt

Re: Chaos Dwarf Warrior comments here

PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 11:18 am
by Hashuts Scion
grotsnot wrote:Why must chaos dwarves be identically statted and pointed to dwarves?

Compare high elves, wood elves, and dark elves.
Compare Empire Swordsmen to Brettonian Men at Arms.

Costs should be based on the internal balance of the book, not on another book.


Actually, this is what GW has said in the past when others have compared one type of unit to another, that the point cost is inherent for the army itself. That being said, I can't buy a CD costing a vast amount different than a normal Dwarf. We get a shield included for 1 additional point. Fine. What the Dwarfs have is an upgrade available to them called Longbeards for up to half of their normal core units. This might be a way to go as well as it rewards you for taking units of Core dwarfs. Having +1 WS and +1 Str means you will wound more often. If you want to be different than normal dwarfs, then give them a different bonus. A daemon weapon, or chaos armor, or something else that makes them appealing.

The second point is dwarfs have 4 different types of basic core: warriors, quarrellers, thunderers, and the 0-1 rangers. These are more expensive, but does give variety. Well, that is built into the base CD warrior unit. We can have warriors and blunderbuss units. We appear to lack quarrellers and rangers. BUT, we have hobgoblins who can fill in very nicely: hob warriors who can carry bows and can be bought at almost 1/2 the price (6 pts each vs 11 pt). With a general nearby, hobs will not run away and with the increased amount of shots, most armies will be affected.

Re: Chaos Dwarf Warrior comments here

PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 6:00 pm
by Dedwrekka
I wanted to point out that the Chaos Dwarf warriors, in particular blunderbuss and command, are cheaper than the previous RH list version. They've been fine at their higher points cost for some time. I wouldn't complain if they got a points decrease, but I'm not going to complain about them being cheaper as they are now.

Additionally, you might need a clarification for Blunderbuss fire zones and combat within the fire zone.

You might end up with a half page just on the blunderbuss rules and clarification (Though, they were just as complicated before, but were spread between multiple FAQs)