Hobgoblin Warrior and Wolf Rider comments here

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Re: Hobgoblin Warrior and Wolf Rider comments here

Postby mattbird » Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:56 am

gobbos are 4pts with light armor, shield, and hw, so currently Hobbos are 1 pt more.

They should probably be the same pts as goblins... Kevin?
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Re: Hobgoblin Warrior and Wolf Rider comments here

Postby Border Reiver » Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:23 am

For the hobbos, the only suggestions that I have is to drop the cost of the warrior by 1 point.

The rationale is that the unit is overcosted when compared to a goblin, or a warrior of ulric. The gobbo are 1 point cheaper and the only difference between the two is 1 point of WS.

A Warrior of Ulric - starts at 3 pts, and can add light armour and shield for another 2 pts. So, for the same cost the WoU has 2 more pts of WS, 1 pt of I, 1 pt of Ld, and doesn't suffer from animosity. I realize that balancing units across armies is difficult, but I think that a 1 pt drop in costs for the hobgoblin is justified for the next version.
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Re: Hobgoblin Warrior and Wolf Rider comments here

Postby elrodogg » Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:53 am

A 1pt drop means you get that unit of 25 for 100pts plus command as compared to 125. With so dwarfs, annihilators, and obsidian guard costing so much elsewhere in the list for ranked units, I like the drop here to provide a non-rabble/slave unit for less.
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Re: Hobgoblin Warrior and Wolf Rider comments here

Postby Hashuts Scion » Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:19 pm

Looking at both goblins and orcs, the hobbos are clearly in between (+1 WS compared to Gobbo, and -1 T, -1 L compared to orc). Gobbo costs 3, orc 5. So, it seems logical that 4 points fits. Now the difference between Orc Boyz and Arrer Boyz is 1 point, and the only difference is the Arrer Boyz has a bow. Therefore, a bow should cost 1 point.

I understand the reasons behind wanting them to be 3. But gobbos also fear elves. If hobs were 3 points, many goblin players would feel slighted.

As far as counting as core, I like the idea of an all hobgoblin army. I have the figures for it and will do a playtest this weekend. What I see offhand, is with a hobgoblin lord, then hobs are core while CDs and Annihilators are rare. I feel Obsidian Guard should also be rare.

I'll have more comments after Saturday.
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Re: Hobgoblin Warrior and Wolf Rider comments here

Postby Larro » Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:03 pm

5 pts. for a Hobgoblin with LA/Shield is ridiculous, end of story. I don't care what a basic Gobbo pays, or the fact that they Fear Elves like that's somehow some amazing drawback. What I care about is point costs, and how this inversely impacts on bodies on the table. There are a ton of troops in the game that costs 5 pts. and 6 pts. which are infinitely better equipped compared to Hobgobbos. Peasants, Warriors of Ulric, Empire Swordsmen, and plenty others all spring to mind. None of these guys have Animosity. None of them "Fear Elves." So why should they be equal? They shouldn't.

The proper thing to do in comparing Hobgobbos to others is to look upward, not downward. You don't compare a Gobbo to a Hobgobbo because as it stands, the Gobbo is cheaper, but this is largely because at 3 pts. a Gobbo was too underpriced. If GW could point Gobbos at 3.5, and Hobgobbos at 4, they would, but that's not how they roll (anymore). So, you need to realize a Gobbo is already about a half-point "overpriced," when comparing it to the Hobgobbo, but that doesn't mean we can't get HGs right and make them the same 4 pts. WITH SHIELD AND LA. 5 pts. is entering into the realm of somewhat reliable ranked fodder (see above), all of which lack Animosity. These bums still have it, and that's worth something.

Also, do Rabble keep their "Free" Standard Bearer? I couldn't find it in the rules. Just wondering, because it'd give them something to be worth taking at 3 pts. vs. the Hobgobbos at 4 (though I think Rabble should be eliminated entirely as they fill the same exact role as Hobgobbos and are far less 'traditional' CD units).

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Re: Hobgoblin Warrior and Wolf Rider comments here

Postby Guy In Suit » Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:10 pm

Rabble shouldn't be able to carry a standard. They are literally slaves being forced into battle as fodder for their masters. Seeing them with any command just doesn't make sense. Maybe a champ as the strongest slave will be up front, similar to ghouls in fact.

Hobgobbo's should be the cheap, (semi-)reliable +5 combat res of the army. I think 5 points with a 4+ hth save sounds about right. Swap shields for bows for free. (I think 20+ for both is fine, as I personally really like seeing big units of archers, and they definitely have their uses, especially when large targets are around.)
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Re: Hobgoblin Warrior and Wolf Rider comments here

Postby Aves » Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:24 pm

All who complain about the cost should remember that "cheap meatshield" has its value, for slow army with hoght shooting potentioan, meatshields are valuable, so those units ought to be more expensive than other armies meatshields.
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Re: Hobgoblin Warrior and Wolf Rider comments here

Postby Renufus » Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:20 am

Aves wrote:All who complain about the cost should remember that "cheap meatshield" has its value, for slow army with hoght shooting potentioan, meatshields are valuable, so those units ought to be more expensive than other armies meatshields.


Hobgoblins are not the meat shields, Rabble are. Rabble are currently fine, besides maybe their armour save being a bit high (removing their light armour would make up for essentially losing animosity, which they got for free).

Hobgoblins, on the other hand, are not fine. They're supposed to be the cheap-n-easy +5CR blocks but they give up way too many points when they bite the curb when used in that role. Since lowering their cost would just bring them into the Rabble's sphere of expertise, they should have something that makes them better at being a large block of cheap-ish walking combat res. Having standards that aren't worth any extra VP would be a step in the right direction, giving them shields and light armour and the no-VP standards for 4 points apiece would be even better. Bretonnian peasants, their closest working equivalent, are only 5pts and they come with light armour, shields, a spear/halberd, no animosity, and the ability to use Knights' Ld if within 6".
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Re: Hobgoblin Warrior and Wolf Rider comments here

Postby Aves » Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:52 am

Hobgoblins are not the meat shields, Rabble are


Both are, Hobgobbos are simply slightly more expensiven meat shield, that can do slightly more.
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Re: Hobgoblin Warrior and Wolf Rider comments here

Postby KevinC » Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:04 pm

Rabble no longer has the options for Standard or Musicians in version 3, and Must be led by a Hobgoblin Taskmaster (unit Champ), they cannot explode unless the Taskmaster is slain.

I disagree about the Hobgoblins. Though, I'm currently considering giving them the Worthless Maggots special rule, which would mean you cannot score points for their standard.

Look, Hobgoblins are priced the way they are for a number of reasons.

One, I do compare them directly to Goblins, Hobgoblins have a WS3 and no fear of elves; this makes for a big deal. First off there are 3 Elf armies out there and all pretty popular, as a Gobbo player fear elves is a huge deal. Second WS3 is big issue, because with WS3 Hobgoblins are now more comparable to Humans than Goblins, in many situations where Goblins are being hit on 3's, Hobgobs are being hit on 4's.Hobgoblins are basically LD 6 Humans, though can easily become LD 10 with a CD general.

Two, unlike Goblins, Hobgoblins are in an army of Dwarfs, they benefit from LD10, this is a huge difference from a LD 8 Goblin or even a LD 9 Orc.

Three, looking at the overall totality of the list. This is a Dwarf army that can get cheap cannon fodder troops. If you think they are too expensive for what they do, I'd tell you don't take them then. Remember regular Dwarfs do not have such options.

With the 'Worthless Maggots' rules, Hobgoblins will be very nasty.

On a side note, Goblins are priced fairly. What could be fixed with them, and other lesser troops like Rabble, and such is to give them a break on equipment prices. Give the whole unit an upgrade for a set points value. I did this for Rabble, but changed it because, as a fan list, I don't think I should make such a drastic changes to Warhammer point costing. For example, a Goblin unit should get shields for +20 points. If unit by a small unit of 20 it works out to be 1 point per model, but the larger the unit you have the better deal you get.

Men-at-arms are 5 points with light armour, shield and halberd or spear. They are however WS2, LD5. They are priced the same as Goblins. Hobgoblins should not be cheaper than them. Hobgoblins are like Empire infantry.

Lastly, Animosity is balanced out all by it self. A one sucks, yes, but a 6 is great and can be incredible! So I view animosity as both a good and bad thing, and so balanced!


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