Hobgoblin Warrior and Wolf Rider comments here

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Re: Hobgoblin Warrior and Wolf Rider comments here

Postby Larro » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:18 pm

Weakland, that is the dumbest suggestion ever. It accomplishes nothing except make Bows 4 pts. each, which is a pt. too cheap, and maintains the 5 pts. for the non-bow Hobgobbos. All you did was make Bows become the obligatory choice, nothing more.

Bows should be 5, Shields and LA should be 4. Remember, minimum sizes are 10 and 20 respectively now, so no more concerns about worthless speed bumps like in the old days with the Hobgobbos, and they're still Animous.

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Re: Hobgoblin Warrior and Wolf Rider comments here

Postby Guy In Suit » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:33 pm

I was assuming min sized twenty. And I think a bow and a shield are worth about the same. A WS3 Unit with a 4+ save in CC is pretty solid for cheap static CR. Maybe they should be 4.5 points? :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Hobgoblin Warrior and Wolf Rider comments here

Postby Larro » Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:17 pm

Men at Arms are 5 pts. and can filch LD from nearby Knight units to be bumped up to LD8, in addition to being able to benefit from their General, AND have WORTHLESS BANNERS. Empire State Troops are 5 pts., with a base LD7. NEITHER of them have Animosity. Animosity is worth at least 1 pt. less. A common Goblin kitted out the same way is 4 pts. - you're trying to tell me +1WS makes these guys worth 5 pts? WS is one of the most useless stats in the game, and the game-breaker for WS (if there is such a thing) exists at the WS3 to WS4 threshold, NOT WS2 to WS3. Let's not go crazy here.

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Re: Hobgoblin Warrior and Wolf Rider comments here

Postby Guy In Suit » Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:50 pm

Larro wrote:Men at Arms are 5 pts. and can filch LD from nearby Knight units to be bumped up to LD8, in addition to being able to benefit from their General, AND have WORTHLESS BANNERS.


Which is why I am working on an army of 150 of them... :mrgreen:

Larro wrote:you're trying to tell me +1WS makes these guys worth 5 pts? WS is one of the most useless stats in the game, and the game-breaker for WS (if there is such a thing) exists at the WS3 to WS4 threshold, NOT WS2 to WS3. Let's not go crazy here.

- Larry


No, i think its worth 4.5 points! :lol:

WS2 to 3 is just as big deal as 3 to 4... compare skellies to ghouls... A lot of troops these days have WS 5 and 6, so WS 2 will hit on 5s. How many RnF units have WS7?!? Of course either way WS still is no big deal...

I would err on the side of caution only because CD have access to LD10. LD10 hobgoblins with a BSB re-roll can prove a pretty awesome tarpit against all but the uber-choppy.
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Re: Hobgoblin Warrior and Wolf Rider comments here

Postby Larro » Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:11 pm

And the same Goblins in armies of LD9 Orc Warbosses with BSBs that run rampant are any less "awesome" at tarpitting? Give me a break. ALL you see are Orc Warbosses and BSBs with +3 Dispel Dice Banners, so it's the same thing, and no one begins to claim that it's OTT in the least bit, and Orcs are certainly better than CDs, new book or old.

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Re: Hobgoblin Warrior and Wolf Rider comments here

Postby Renufus » Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:46 pm

Guy In Suit wrote:No, i think its worth 4.5 points! :lol:

WS2 to 3 is just as big deal as 3 to 4... compare skellies to ghouls... A lot of troops these days have WS 5 and 6, so WS 2 will hit on 5s. How many RnF units have WS7?!? Of course either way WS still is no big deal...

I would err on the side of caution only because CD have access to LD10. LD10 hobgoblins with a BSB re-roll can prove a pretty awesome tarpit against all but the uber-choppy.


Who cares whether Hobgoblins are hitting on 4's or 5's? Either way they're not going to kill anything of value, the only real benefit to WS3 vs 2 is that they're not getting hit on 3's by WS3 troops (don't even get me started on Ghouls to Skellies as there are many, many more reasons Ghouls are better besides being WS3). You have to look at the big picture here... Yes, you can get Ld10 Hobgoblins... If you take the one remaining character choice with Ld10, otherwise you're getting the exact same Ld as Goblins get with an Orc Warboss. The biggest feature of the Chaos Dwarf list is the combination of high-Ld dwarfs and dirt-cheap greenskins, so it doesn't make much sense to use the Ld10 argument as a reason for keeping Hobgoblins more expensive than they're worth because that's one of the list's inherent strengths. Goblins get the advantage of being supported by some of the best troops in the game for their cost (6pt LA-Sh Orc Boyz) and the Waagh and numerous other factors that separate the O&G list from the CD list, and they're still overpriced by a point. Just ask anyone whether they'd take a Goblin or a Night Goblin and you'd probably get a whole list of reasons why Night Goblins are better - not the least of which is the fact that they get things like Fanatics and Nets to help support them and they're not forced to spend points on the rather useless LA and instead come with the more useful Shield option. Using a poor unit from another book as the basis for comparison and then making that poor unit slightly better in combat and slightly more expensive is just...foolish. Comparing costs across books only takes you so far, at some point you have to remove the tether of 'well, x unit costs y points so these guys should cost y+z points.' It doesn't work like that.

Look at the CD list in a vacuum and forget Goblins even exist for the moment. The Rabble are cheaper and 95% of the time will not suffer from Animosity, which, let's not kid ourselves, is a significant disadvantage. Having a unit squabble 2" away from a glorious game-winning flank charge sucks and the D6" move from rolling a 6 can hurt you just as easily as it can help you. They also ignore Hobgoblin panic. What possible reason is there for using Hobgoblins? Command options? Congrats, your unit is now not only more expensive, but also gives up 100 extra VP's when it eventually eats it. Hobgoblins need two things in order to have a functioning role in the army - they need to not give up so many points when they die, which the Worthless Maggots rule helps accomplish, and they need to be cheaper because 5pts in today's game is a lot to pay for a unit with what is still a poor statline and a horrible drawback in Animosity. If you want to go back to comparing across books, compare them to Orcs for 6 points. The Orcs get +1T, +1Ld, ignore lesser greenskin panic, +1S in the first round of combat, and the Waagh. All this for one point more than you pay for a Hobgoblin. Fair? And yet you don't see anyone complaining about basic Orcs. Bretonnian M@A are the same cost as a Hobgoblin with a shield and their standards are worth nothing, they can leech Ld from nearby Knights, they get a polearm, and most importantly, do not suffer from Animosity. Even still, you don't see them a lot in Bretonnian lists because the Knights are so much better.

Hell, look at VC skellies vs TK skellies. The VC skellies can be raised beyond their starting number, can march within 6" of a vamp, are one point cheaper with the LA+Sh setup, and multiple units can get magic banners no matter who is the general. For the exact same unit. Comparing across books is not the be-all-end-all of game balance.

I don't think it would be the end of days and start raining fire and brimstone if Hobgoblins were 4pts with LA-Sh and their standards didn't give up any extra VP. Take away the Light Armour from Rabble to distinguish the two units a bit (and because it doesn't make sense to armour up your slaves who are sent into battle to die). In the grand scheme of things, you're only saving maybe 50pts tops by making Hobgoblins cheaper, but you're now giving us a reason to use them. Stop thinking in terms of what other books have and start thinking in terms of what this unit does for the Chaos Dwarf army, otherwise you might as well be comparing apples to oranges.
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Re: Hobgoblin Warrior and Wolf Rider comments here

Postby Larro » Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:18 pm

+1.

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Re: Hobgoblin Warrior and Wolf Rider comments here

Postby Matt » Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:22 am

I think just about everything I've posted up until now has been suggesting to power down units or raise the cost.

With a min size of 20, 6 points for a hobgoblin with a bow is too expensive.

If you drop the minimum size to 10, then 6 points isn't so bad. 60 points for a bow line is alright.
If you keep the minimum size at 20, you're stuck with 120 points for the units, which is a little steep.

Rabble are viable simply because they don't take animosity checks; though I'd drop the armor from them. Slaves should go into battle with nothing!



20 guys with bows do have a use.
I run 8 blocks of 20-25 infantry in my orcs and goblins, and 3 of them are armed with bows or short bows. In my last 5 games, every game I've had a large target to shoot at, and enemies on hills.
When placing terrain I'll place hills in my opponents deployment zone, which he promptly loads up with warmahines. Turn 1 I march my archer blocks forward. Turn 2, every archer in the unit fires at the warmachines. It usually only takes a turn or two of shooting to kill the crew. People seem to forget about the hill rules during deployment.


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Re: Hobgoblin Warrior and Wolf Rider comments here

Postby Garrett » Sun Jun 21, 2009 5:47 pm

Agree with Ren. Comparing hobbos to Empire infantry isn't so much a way to illustrate how good Hobbos are so much as a way to point out how bad Empire infantry is.
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Re: Hobgoblin Warrior and Wolf Rider comments here

Postby decker_cky » Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:49 pm

How about this: 4 pts with light armour. Shields for +1 pt. May exchange light armour for bows for +1 pt. Keeps the 5 pt LA & Sh, and gives the option of a 5 pt bow.
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