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Re: Hobgoblin Warrior and Wolf Rider comments here

PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:43 pm
by Larro
5 pts. for a Light Armor/Shield Hobgobbo is too much, considering Human troops with the same save and stats and better LD are the same price, AND DON'T HAVE ANIMOSITY.

No one is bitching about 4 pt. Hobgobbos with Shields and Light armor, at minimum 20. They're 80+ pts. per unit. Perfectly fine, and still Animous. The issue is Bows. People think 5 pt. Bowmen with minimum 10 are too powerful. They're not. 50 pts. is fine for a minimum 10 bow unit that has animosity. It certainly isn't a 20-point speedbump of the RH days.

- Larry

Re: Hobgoblin Warrior and Wolf Rider comments here

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:01 am
by elrodogg
Larro wrote:No one is bitching about 4 pt. Hobgobbos with Shields and Light armor, at minimum 20. They're 80+ pts. per unit. Perfectly fine, and still Animous. The issue is Bows. People think 5 pt. Bowmen with minimum 10 are too powerful. They're not. 50 pts. is fine for a minimum 10 bow unit that has animosity. It certainly isn't a 20-point speedbump of the RH days.


Wow. You really don't get the entire point of the argument against having these troops. Why don't you go back and read Andy's post on the matter.

Re: Hobgoblin Warrior and Wolf Rider comments here

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:21 pm
by Larro
As far as I can tell, Andy doesn't have a problem with the 4 pt. Hobgobbos with LA/Sh coming in units of 20+, though I could be mistaken about that. And yes, I certainly understand his point - it's hardly veiled. He thinks that at 50 pts. for 10 Bows, the unit is too cheap and becomes a no brainer, though I don't see him saying they're OTT broken, just that they're a very good deal.

My position is that while I agree with this opinion for the most part, that it's not the first nor last time a unit is so cheap you could spam 4+ of them.

50 pts. for a deployment is at the lower-end, sure. But it's not unheard of. O&G get Snotlings, which are amongst the best redirectors in the game, and cost less. Beasts and Chaos get Warhound units for 30 pts., and are fantastic redirectors due to their speed. Dire Wolves are 40 pts. 40!! They're fast cav, they move 18", and they cause Fear. Sure they can't flee, so that hurts their value a little bit, but they're still amongst the best deployments and table quarter holders/contesters in the game. HE Eagles are 50 pts., and you can get 4 of them at 2K. Are Eagles not an amazing unit choice?

Yes, Hobgobbo archers are missile troops, so they impact the game even if not redirecting, but they also compete for a spot in CD battle line and are M4 infantry and thus very easily bottleneck your position if you take too many of them, which the aforementioned troops do not do b/c of their speed. And really, at the end of the day, I don't know that anyone is terrified of 15 - 20 S3 bowshots in a list that has otherwise very little shooting. BBs are 12 - 15" range and will likely remain anti-infantry weapons, so if they get a small solution for fast cav in the form of 50 pt. Animous BS3 Bow units, what's the big deal?

- Larry

Re: Hobgoblin Warrior and Wolf Rider comments here

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:39 pm
by Hashuts Scion
Larro wrote:My position is that while I agree with this opinion for the most part, that it's not the first nor last time a unit is so cheap you could spam 4+ of them.

Yes, Hobgobbo archers are missile troops, so they impact the game even if not redirecting, but they also compete for a spot in CD battle line. BBs are 12 - 15" range and will likely remain anti-infantry weapons, so if they get a small solution for fast cav in the form of 50 pt. Animous BS3 Bow units, what's the big deal?

- Larry


I with you here. Unless I have missed a post, the change from 20 to 10 is in stone. But, bows are still 2 points. So, 10 will cost 60 (50 if bows are 1 pt). 4 of these 10 strong units are not necessarily all that great. Unless they are near the general or the banner of slavery, they still will break on a 7+. But Larry's pt about them taking up space in my army is definately true. I look to hobbos to fill in points. A unit of 10 annihilators is 120, so are 2 units of hob bowmen worth 1 of CDs? Hmmm....

Re: Hobgoblin Warrior and Wolf Rider comments here

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:40 pm
by elrodogg
So, you really did miss it. :lol:

The point is, is that this list has everything. Decent very reliable magic, throw-away slave units, hard anvil units in core, multi-attack shock cav, excellent warmachines, fast-cav, excellent short-range missile troops, chariots, scouts, unbreakable fighty rare choice, 40mm s5/t5 troops, etc. The list goes on and on. What's being produced is one of the most balanced armies around. To add in spammable no-brainer choice archer units for 50pts a pop only makes the list further down the path of having few-no weaknesses. I am not saying, nor was Andy that 50pt spammable missile troops were broken by themselves, but rather that the list shouldn't get them at all from an overall balance perspective. If they are kept 20+, then you're not going to field them outside of an all hobgobbo list, which is a good thing IMO.

Re: Hobgoblin Warrior and Wolf Rider comments here

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:18 pm
by allanmcnab
Ronen, while I agree with you about the no glaring weaknesses in the book, it's not as if there are any "vast beyond comprehension" strengths either. sure there are plenty of serviceable choices throughout, but nothing jumps out at me as absurdley overpowered. (at least not since the 85 pt demoneaters) Sure some more playtesting needs to be done, but a lack of "weaknesses" does not a top tier list make if there is a concurrent lack of "strengths" In the current tournament scene I think that skaven are a good example of this. they have no glaring weaknesses, or at least none that can't mostly be hidden, but at the same time, there is no OTT strengths like Demons or VC that go along with the same lack of weaknesses.

I must admit, I don't see what the problem with units of 10 archers is especially not at 60 points, If one is worried about the speed bump aspect wolf riders certainly preform that duty much better and, for only 5 points more, they can flank and break ranks as well. The projection of force by archers is extremely limited.

Whatever way is chosen it will not make or break the army, but they certainly won't be seen in units of 20 except in a themed army.

Re: Hobgoblin Warrior and Wolf Rider comments here

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:27 pm
by Hashuts Scion
Ronan,

So, you really did miss it.


I didn't miss it as much as confuse it with the sneaky gits who are now 10 man, hobs are still 20.

Re: Hobgoblin Warrior and Wolf Rider comments here

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 11:04 pm
by Larro
Allan McNabb, well said sir.

- Larry

Re: Hobgoblin Warrior and Wolf Rider comments here

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 11:33 pm
by Guy In Suit
MCNABBBBBB

Re: Hobgoblin Warrior and Wolf Rider comments here

PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:57 pm
by Larro
Something else that I don't think is being properly addressed is this - Hobgoblins with Bows used to cost 5 pts. per model back in the RH days, and no one said boo about it. Understandably, the issue with Hobgoblins was that you could get 20-point units of naked Hobgobbos, but the fact remains that no one took or abused Hobgoblin Archers, always opting for the 2.5 for 1 cost efficiency of the dirt-cheap brethren. This seems to me that as the 20-pt. units are kicked to the curb, the default thing to bitch about becomes the 50 pt. Hobgobbo speedbumps, which have always existed and which were never complained about - until now.

I think that the fear of massed BS3 S3 bowfire from a mega-long line of Hobgobbo archers is misplaced. Sure they're a good buy, but unlike the 20 pt. units, they're only a good buy to taste, and not to spam excessively. They're hardly Skaven Slave units. They're easily dispatched if touched, and are far worse redirectors than all of the other culprits I mentioned earlier, Dire Wolves, Warhounds, and Eagles included. At the end of the day, I just don't think Hobgobbo Archers become a viable unit at 20+ min. size.

- Larry