V3 Annihilator comments here!

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Re: V3 Annihilator comments here!

Postby Anger Worm » Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:54 pm

That works. It's relatively unimportant considering most chargers will be over 6".
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Re: V3 Annihilator comments here!

Postby Larro » Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:06 pm

Fool wrote:Maybe you could keep the rules the way they are but put a cap on the number of total shots allowed? Like the number of models in the unit. Just seems wierd that 5 guys have the potential to hit and wound 30+ size units.


This runs counter to how the blunderbuss has worked pretty much forever. All you guys hating on the BB fail to understand that it is fucking 12" range. It's not affecting the game Turn 1, and often times not affecting the game Turn 2 either. Add to the fact that it's a pretty expensive shooty unit to begin with if you want max effectiveness (180 pts.), and if run at the minimum 15 bodies, will drop significantly in power after ONE CASUALTY. Thus, if you want to add a few buffer bodies, you're looking at ~210-220 pts. for a shooting unit that at times will get 1 or max, 2 shots off per game. Suddenly this is overpowered? Leave well enough alone with the BBs.

If you want to change it back to the old 'box' method as Jarrett suggests, but do away with the box itself (meaning only models w/in 12" can be hit), then that's fine, but I'd agree to consider adding Armor Piercing if you do this. Otherwise, 12 pts. per model seems fine to me.

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Re: V3 Annihilator comments here!

Postby Anger Worm » Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:16 pm

Yeah, just to be clear I was saying it should affect a single unit within 12" range. Its not a multi-unit hitting box anymore, but it does have a more simple, and wider targeting zone (12" out extending 45 degrees to the left and right).
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Re: V3 Annihilator comments here!

Postby mattbird » Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:35 pm

yeah, I think we are all on the same page as to the desired effect; maintain the old mass destruction effect of the 12" fire zone, while eliminating the messy template mechanic. It feels like we're close to cracking it.
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Re: V3 Annihilator comments here!

Postby Larro » Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:09 pm

I think the way they work now is fine as it is. The range is so short, I don't think it's that huge of a deal either way.

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Re: V3 Annihilator comments here!

Postby mattbird » Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:20 pm

"now" meaning the current playtest rules? or "now" meaning the RH rules?
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Re: V3 Annihilator comments here!

Postby Aves » Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:12 pm

That works. It's relatively unimportant considering most chargers will be over 6".


You do realise that BB's will have stand and shot anyway?
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Re: V3 Annihilator comments here!

Postby Larro » Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:19 pm

Now as in V3 rules/point-costs.

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Re: V3 Annihilator comments here!

Postby Matt » Sat Jun 13, 2009 12:56 am

These guys are great.

Normally, my rank and file shooters do 1 of 3 things.
Most common: 1) Shoot up small units, taking them below half for the points, or panicking them if I'm lucky. If I'm really lucky, I may shoot a small unit dead (usually 5 man fast cav die this way).
Less Common: 2) Shoot up large units, getting that 1 or 2 kills needed to strip away 1 point worth of rank bonus. If I'm lucky, it's enough of a swing to give me the +1 for size in combat.
Very Uncommon: 3) Rank up and punish large targets or enemies on hills. It's fun to watch a giant try and charge 30 gnoblars (ok, I'll stand and fire with 60 shots...)

Blunderbusses simply suck at option 1. On the other hand, they are extremely good at thinning down those blocks and stripping ranks. Where crossbows may give me a kill or two, blunderbusses kill a whole rank or two.
With the new option to fire normally, you can still pull of option 3. If an elf flew too near on a dragon, I'd consider turning to face and unloading with all 15 guys.



As for combat:
Yes, Dwarves with crossbows are a point cheaper than a Chaos dwarf with blunderbuss. Keep in mind that the dwarf with crossbow is in light armor.
But, crossbow dwarves can't do too much against a block of 40 or so night goblins; where as chaos dwarves punish them.


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Re: V3 Annihilator comments here!

Postby DarkbloodSkullpulper » Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:14 pm

I don't like the negatives for stand and shoot or against skirmishers. As Larry has pointed out, blunderbusses are generally going to get 2-3 chances to shoot for the entire game, and if one of those chances to shoot takes a 33% reduction in effectiveness, it's going to hurt.

I've always liked the kill box rules, but can see the benefit to removing that potentially-confusing set of rules. Worth noting: removing the kill box rules is a very big deal in terms of CD flexibility because previously it was absolutely critical to have a fire zone available which was clear of all friendly units, and that made blunderbusses fairly difficult to screen or redirect around. However, this benefit is offset by the inability to hit multiple enemies. Net/net it seems like a wash to me and I don't think points should be any more than 1 point greater than the RH list. i.e. 12 points per is on the high end of a reasonable point cost.

If you're going for simple, have:
# of shots in a concentrated volley = number of models in enemy unit at S3+1 per rank, hit on 4+
# of single shots = number of Annihilators in the CD unit, all at s3 w/ armor piercing, hit on 4+
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