V3 Annihilator comments here!

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Re: V3 Annihilator comments here!

Postby Border Reiver » Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:36 pm

But it didn't matter if you were partially under the template or not -partials were still hit on a 4+. You didn't have to measure from the third rank to see if the attack was S5, you measured from the front rank and as long as the target was within 12" of the unit front it was hit. Or if you did, it certainly wasn't clear in my copy of RH, or the reprint int the Cdn WD supplement, or back in 5th ed). It was no different than any other template weapon. You just needed to make your own template as it was a box 12" long and as wide as the unit (I made 2 to match the two frontages that I commonly used).

The problems with multiple wound models that we used to bitch about were a reasonable limit on the utility of the weapon - given how devastating it could be to ranked infantry.

I've tried the variants you've put forth. I've explained them to my opponents. The old RH version is well understood (especially with the templates). The version used in version 1 was as well. The concentrated fire and volley fire wasn't well received, and the S4-Fire in 3 Ranks version is easy to understand, but it feels wrong after so many years with the template...
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Re: V3 Annihilator comments here!

Postby mattbird » Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:18 pm

...well, it could also be that I played it wrong...

:oops:
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Re: V3 Annihilator comments here!

Postby Alric » Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:48 pm

mattbird wrote:the 12" box was a pain to work out, on account of partial hits which made you roll a 4+ to see if you are in the template, then another 4+ to see if hit. Taken across multiple models and units, it was annoying to work out. Then you had to figure out which models were in range of all 3 blunderbuss ranks, or just 2, or just one, to determine strength.

It was doable, but was time consuming.

Then there are the non-CD players who thought it was too powerful.

Then there were the CD players who thought it was not good enough against ogres and single models.

The door is still open to just go back to the RH rules, we were just trying to see if there's a better solution. The current rules with shooting in 3 ranks seem better than the old firebox to me, with MSU armies being all the rage. The other downside with the fire in 3 ranks thing is that it really makes Eruption Guns redundant.


The template partial hits are the same as for other template partial hits for war machines and spells, so that part should be routine.

This
" figure out which models were in range of all 3 blunderbuss ranks, or just 2, or just one, to determine strength.
is a mistake if you are trying to do it this way. You always measure from the front rank only.

The rules state that 1 or 2 more ranks may add their fire to the front ranks, the range is the same, your not shooting from behind other friendly models that would be a terrible loss due to freindly fire as the back rank would shoot their comrades in front of them. From the original rules " It is assumed that the models behind poke their weapons forward to add their fire to the volley." This and the rules stating you measure from the front rank should make it clear that you always measure from the front rank only.

For
Then there were the CD players who thought it was not good enough against ogres and single models.
There has always been the "concentrate fire rule" the same rules used for stand and shoot when being charged. It's a simple rule where you just role a hit for each model in the front rank , strength bonus for ranks still applies. Its a one line/sentence rule that explains shooting vs. single model or large wound units or characters or chariots or being charged.
Last edited by Alric on Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: V3 Annihilator comments here!

Postby DarkbloodSkullpulper » Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:07 pm

mattbird wrote:...well, it could also be that I played it wrong...

:oops:


Yup. It's really not all that complex. At the beginning of each game, I plop down the Blunders to demonstrate: fix the tape measure at 12", hold it out on the left of the unit, then the right, and explain that everything in between should be treated as if it is a partial hit from a template - getting hit on 4+ with no modifiers, strength dependent on the number of ranks I have. 30 second explanation, never had any problems with people getting confused.

The biggest problem I ran into from the RH rules was that I had to spend a ton of time fiddling with my facing and position to maximize the number of shots, and also fiddling with the spacing to my other units in order to make sure I didn't hit any of those when firing the blunderbuss. Honestly, that alone has generally added about 20 minutes to each and every one of the last 20 games I've played with the CD under RH rules.

Thus, although the RH rules are easy to understand and use, they are inefficient in the application because they require so much finesse. I'd love to keep the same sort of effect (S4 or 5 hit on every enemy within 12") without the need for the finicky mechanics. As pointed out above, their role is pretty well-defined as an anti-infantry short-ranged shredder, and you need to carefully consider anything that takes away that primary function just as much as you need to consider whether or not to beef up their effectiveness against cav/monsters/big guys.

A summary of the current ideas:
- Keeping the killbox from RH is good game balance, but it slows the game.

- Under the v3 concentrated volley rules, the killbox effect is improved quite a bit(models outside 12" can be affected) and the need to screw around with precise movement is removed. As a down-side, if the v3 concentrated volley rules require a standard "to hit" roll, it's a big downgrade to blunderbuss.

- I'd say the v3 standard "thrown weapon" rules are a simple but very weak alternate firing mode; it shouldn't ever be used except when firing at a single target. The idea of each model in the front rank being able to fire while keeping the S bonus for ranks makes it more useful but still far fromoverpowered. Simple mechanics, but having two fire modes has some potential for confusing opponents. 4th ed had an alternate fire mode as well, so there is precedent.

- The tweak to v3 concentrated volley of only affecting enemy models within 12" puts the balance back to RH levels, slightly weaker because of the inability to hit more than one unit, but still easier to work with because of the lack of worry about hitting one's own units.

- The proposed rules of being able to fire in 3 ranks at either s4 or s5 seems to change the reliability of the Annihilators greatly - they now can put a serious hurt on cav or big guy units, at the expense of being less effective against ranked infantry. Net/net it's a slight downgrade for the blunderbusses. Previously, they could be relied on to do one thing and do it well. Under the fire-in-3-rank ruleset, they are enhanced against some troop types, but do about half as well as before in their previous primary function.


Suggestion: define the expected role of Annihilators, and design rules to fit that role, with a minimum of complexity.
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Re: V3 Annihilator comments here!

Postby DarkbloodSkullpulper » Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:14 pm

Alric wrote:There has always been the "concentrate fire rule" the same rules used for stand and shoot when being charged. It's a simple rule where you just role a hit for each model in the front rank , strength bonus for ranks still applies. Its a one line/sentence rule that explains shooting vs. single model or large wound units or characters or chariots or being charged.


Ah, thanks. I couldn't remember how the old 4th/5th ed "concentrated fire" rule worked, for those times when the killbox just won't cut it...

+1
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Re: V3 Annihilator comments here!

Postby Alric » Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:24 pm

DarkbloodSkullpulper wrote:
mattbird wrote:...well, it could also be that I played it wrong...

:oops:


Yup. It's really not all that complex. At the beginning of each game, I plop down the Blunders to demonstrate: fix the tape measure at 12", hold it out on the left of the unit, then the right, and explain that everything in between should be treated as if it is a partial hit from a template - getting hit on 4+ with no modifiers, strength dependent on the number of ranks I have. 30 second explanation, never had any problems with people getting confused.

The biggest problem I ran into from the RH rules was that I had to spend a ton of time fiddling with my facing and position to maximize the number of shots, and also fiddling with the spacing to my other units in order to make sure I didn't hit any of those when firing the blunderbuss. Honestly, that alone has generally added about 20 minutes to each and every one of the last 20 games I've played with the CD under RH rules.



We always use the rule for shooting that prohibits shooting that would hit friendly units, that included shooting into units that are in hth. I never have to do any fiddling , I dont know maybe I may have missed an extra model or two but myself I'd rather keep the game moving.
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Re: V3 Annihilator comments here!

Postby DarkbloodSkullpulper » Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:51 pm

Alric wrote:We always use the rule for shooting that prohibits shooting that would hit friendly units, that included shooting into units that are in hth. I never have to do any fiddling , I dont know maybe I may have missed an extra model or two but myself I'd rather keep the game moving.


Right, thus the need for a lot of fiddling, sometimes. A single hobo in the way or a clip on an engaged enemy can prevent an entire round of shooting. It's easy if you just line up the blunderbusses out in the middle of the field where the enemy can run straight at them, but it's trickier if you try to work in some screening units or odd angles. I used to run 5+ units of ten man hobo speed bumps, so that definitely added to the problem.
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Re: V3 Annihilator comments here!

Postby Maul » Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:25 am

Ok. I will admit that there is a bunch of stuff here that I have not read through but here is my opinion. I like the general idea at the beginning. It is much easier then the very cool, but often confusing template method.

fire in 3 ranks.
12" range
no negative to hit penalties apply
when shot at units with unit strength of 7 or greater receive +1 to hit
May move and fire
Str 4 armor piercing

Wild ideas I have been thinking about for blunderbusses:
-models in front rank receive x2 shot
-the strength of the actual weapon (how could it be strength 5)
-always stand and shoot
-the first time a blunderbuss unit is fired in a game it may add D6" to its range
-the first time a blunderbuss unit is fired in a game models in front rank or (all models receive) x2 shot
-when standing and shooting, the front rank or (all models receive) x2 shot
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Re: V3 Annihilator comments here!

Postby Alric » Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:45 am

Larro wrote:Ronen, I agree that it shouldn't be great at killing everything. So, again, leave the death-box, have them be anti-infantry specialists, and call it a day. The list will have to rely on HTH and possibly Magic to deal with multiple Knight/Ogre/Minotaur units, like it always has, and that'll be the inherent weakness in the book - like always.

I fail to see why we couldn't just leave well enough alone. I haven't met anyone who had real trouble understanding the death box, and if they do, they shouldn't be playing a complicated game like WHFB to begin with - you know, with clipping/sliding, drawn-in combats, a billion FAQs, casting into combat (and then not casting into combat?), Skaven leading from the rear and shooting into HTH, etc. This is not checkers. This is a game with rules that are occassionally complex, and the death-box is the least of my worries.

Seriously - try explaining the movement phase to half the people on the tourney scene who overmeasure/wheel incorrectly/move models before their opponents make a reaction.

- Larry

Agreed, all very good points.
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Re: V3 Annihilator comments here!

Postby mattbird » Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:36 am

well, at least I had the rules half right then, I was just not doing the strength part correctly.
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