Page 8 of 10

Re: V3 Annihilator comments here!

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:40 am
by mattbird
Alric wrote:There has always been the "concentrate fire rule" the same rules used for stand and shoot when being charged. It's a simple rule where you just role a hit for each model in the front rank , strength bonus for ranks still applies. Its a one line/sentence rule that explains shooting vs. single model or large wound units or characters or chariots or being charged.


Those are from the old White Dwarf Presents Chaos Dwarfs book, they never made it into the (current) Ravening Hordes list.

Re: V3 Annihilator comments here!

PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:17 pm
by Alric
mattbird wrote:
Alric wrote:There has always been the "concentrate fire rule" the same rules used for stand and shoot when being charged. It's a simple rule where you just role a hit for each model in the front rank , strength bonus for ranks still applies. Its a one line/sentence rule that explains shooting vs. single model or large wound units or characters or chariots or being charged.


Those are from the old White Dwarf Presents Chaos Dwarfs book, they never made it into the (current) Ravening Hordes list.

Yes, but RH wasn't a complete army book rules set for any one army but a "get you by" list for all the armies until the proper Army books could be published. Plus the original GW Chaos Dwarf Army book rules for concentrated fire still work well since they basically follow normal shooting rules , adding the ranks strength bonus. If you are looking for simple rules for blunderbusses its an easy add.

For myself I would start off writing with this rule for blunderbusses as the standard shooting rule with a weapon profile with the rank strength bonus and range, and make the "fire zone" a optional shooting rule for blunderbusses, kinda like with the grape shot rule for cannons.

Re: V3 Annihilator comments here!

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:45 am
by Chuckman
Hi, I really like all of the rules in the version 3 rulebook, but I did notice that the annihilators were not quite right. I think that there are several different fixes for this;

1. Version 3 with the following changes; Stick to the version 3 rules but with no shooting penalties (always hit on 4+). Multiple wound creatures take D3 to hit rolls, large targets take D6 to hit rolls. It is like grapeshot, larger targets would be hit more.

2. This to me is the best idea, and the simplest. The idea you were all talking about; every guy gets one S4 shot AP with no shooting penalties. Can shoot in 3 ranks. I do not think this is overpowered. This is the only thing these guys do, make them too ineffective and no one will use them. They are basically a weak combat unit that gets to shoot once before combat (and then a stand and shoot). They only have hand weapons and heavy armour, almost any unit will beat them unless they have been shot first. This is better than a template and version the three rules because you get more shots for having more guys the other two solutions do not take this into account. Also larger targets will be hit more which makes more sense.

I do not like the template, templates are slow and inaccurate. Also how does it make sense that a dragon will only be potentially hit with one shot just like an individual character running around? Picture a shot gun firing pattern, the larger the target the more times it should be hit.

Re: V3 Annihilator comments here!

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:06 pm
by Poxous
I like the V.3 rules. I think bigger targets should be hit more for sure.

Re: V3 Annihilator comments here!

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:25 pm
by Larro
I also don't think the V3 rules are bad. They make them slightly worse vs. infantry and better vs. larger targets. They're relatively clear as well. I think the issue came from the fact that they were considered overpowered by Birdoff, though his practice game was against a very average LM list and a player who didn't understand the full potential of the BB power. I think they could work in this incarnation if you guys don't want to keep the 12" deathbox template.

- Larry

Re: V3 Annihilator comments here!

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:32 pm
by elrodogg
Larry's comments are dead on, the v3 rules are just fine. Lizards having low toughness on their skinks/terradons and low AS on their bigger critters are particularly vulnerable to blunderbusses. They also have to get within 12" for their own missile troops to work. That army happens to work in the perfect zone where blunderbusses are at their best. I don't think they would have nearly the same effect if you were looking at a wall of orcs or any other army where you're going to get at best a single round of shooting before they charge you.

Since we're always comparing it to the RH's rules.... I've always hated the 12" deathbox. I don't like weapons that have a unique mechanic that requires it's own template. The v3 super javelins are easy to understand and much faster overall.

Re: V3 Annihilator comments here!

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:36 pm
by Larro
/agree.

- Larry

Re: V3 Annihilator comments here!

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:10 am
by Alric
It would simplify these weapons if you gave them a normal weapons profile. For example as they are now Blunderbuss... Range 12" .... Strength S3+1 per rank up to S5 max. This rule would help players in determining shooting in any unforseen situations. The RH rules are to specialized and makes it difficult for players to understand that the weapon is basically a handgun with a 12" range.

The V.3 is less effective than current RH rules against most unit types and sizes. They could be brought up to more even with current RH blunderbusses if you use the same rank bonus for strength they have now. So instead of S4 AP fire in 3 ranks, have them S3+1 per rank up to S5 max. , fire in 3 ranks. The added strength for a third rank would be more like what they are supposed to be like and players would more likely to build units in 3 ranks. The fact that they would only be S4 in 2 ranks and S3 in 1 rank would be an improvement over V.3 since under V.3 players could string them out in 1 or 2 ranks increasing the field of fire and fire arcs but still would recieve S4 AP shooting.

Heres and example for comparison.

A chaos dwarf unit of 15 blunderbusses 3 ranks, and 2 different enemy units of 20 one T3 another T4. So just shooting at 1 enemy unit....

With the current RH (Ravening Hordes) rules 15 CD's could cover all 20 of the enemy unit.
On avg. 10 would take a S5 hit, the T3 would take 8 wounds, the T4 would take 7 wounds.

With the new 'f'ire in 3 ranks' S4 attacks, and all 15 can shoot.
On avg. 8 would take a S4 hit, the T3 would take 5 wounds, the T4 would take 4 wounds.

So even with all 15 of the new 'fire in 3 ranks' being able to shoot, they still do about 40% less wounds than the current Ravening Hordes rules for blunderbusses.

With the 'fire in 3 ranks' S3+1 per rank up to S5 max, and all 15 can shoot.
On avg. 8 would take a S5 hit, the T3 would take 6 wounds, the T4 would take 5 wounds.

This would be closer to the number of wounds traditional blunderbuss do and the bonus depends on the added ranks.

Re: V3 Annihilator comments here!

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:22 am
by Matt
Alric wrote:With the new 'f'ire in 3 ranks' S4 attacks, and all 15 can shoot.
On avg. 8 would take a S4 hit, the T3 would take 5 wounds, the T4 would take 4 wounds.

So even with all 15 of the new 'fire in 3 ranks' being able to shoot, they still do about 40% less wounds than the current Ravening Hordes rules for blunderbusses.

With the 'fire in 3 ranks' S3+1 per rank up to S5 max, and all 15 can shoot.
On avg. 8 would take a S5 hit, the T3 would take 6 wounds, the T4 would take 5 wounds.

This would be closer to the number of wounds traditional blunderbuss do and the bonus depends on the added ranks.


I don't know if you want to balance it based on shooting effect for a 15 strong unit.
In the old rules, the T5 gaint would take a wound about half the time.
In the new rules, the S4 shooting would do 3.33 wounds, and your suggested S3+1/rank would average 5 wounds.
That's 10 times better against a giant.

That's really the problem. A blunderbuss should have the roll of anti-infantry, leaving the big guys to be skewered by the bolt throwers.


Another possible consideration is units larger than 15.
In the old rules, 2 units of 15 firing would hit half, and kill 7-8 (as you pointed out). The 2nd unit firing would hit half of the Survivors, and kill another 4-5.
In the new suggested rules, rolling those 2 units of 15 into 1 unit of 30 resulted in no loss of fire effect, and a much better stand and fire.

I actually like the 1 unit within 15", everyone gets shot rule of V.3
It seems to work, and doesn't allow the blunderbuss to take the roll of the warmachines away. They can still help out, but their primary roll of anti-infantry is intact, shots at T5 or T6 monsters is "viable desperation".

-Matt

Re: V3 Annihilator comments here!

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:49 am
by Alric
The big difference is the lesser number of hits the new version have compared to the RH "fire zone". What if we borrow something from the dwarf thunderers and add a +1 to hit modifier ? This increases the number hits closer to the current RH rules without being to killer.

Blunderbuss
Fire in 3 ranks
Range 12"
Strength 4 AP
+1 to hit
modify for cover only
move or fire.

I'm going to play test these, we have several dwarf army players here I want to test these against them as this version is similar to the Dwarf Thunderers the difference being Thunderers 24" range vs. Annihilators fire in 3 ranks I thinking they will be about equal in effectiveness.

also just for reference for developing rules for handgun weapon they share some common traits. They are typically high strength, armor piercing and slow aka move or fire.