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Re: Bull Centaur comments here

PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 11:35 pm
by method
true that

Re: Bull Centaur comments here

PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 6:21 am
by mikkjel
I agree with the cav/infantry statement that oversimplifying the rules for clarity might make more situations arise that arent good. I think making them cav, base strength 5 and an added 6+ scaly might be a better idea, having them hit at 2s6 or 3s5 attacks (that being a choice worth taking, more so than 3s4 vs 2s6), and a 4+ or 3+ armour save (shield included). It also means that buildings and such are a no-go place and lore of beasts works against them. It just makes more sense to me.

Re: Bull Centaur comments here

PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 12:44 am
by Garrett
Playing again tonight, they need some additional survivability so they can get into combat. My unit got shot to pieces on Turn 2, and we're not talking about a concentration of firepower to do it, either-one weaksauce magic missile and some javelins killed three out of four. They might either need the option to take Chaos Armor (+5/model?) or the ability to take a magic banner, so they can take the -1 shooting banner which seemingly is tailor made for them. Both might make them a bit too tough to kill, not sure.

Re: Bull Centaur comments here

PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 9:07 am
by Groznit Goregut
I think they need the ability to take chaos armor AND the ability to take a magic banner. If this is the case, then one unit can be -1 to hit and have the great armor. Personally, I plan on using at least two in every army list.

I think following the US GT ruling from before about treating bull centaurs like centigors is the best option. It follows a pre-existing standard. They are on cavalry bases, but count as infantry. I don't see why bull centaurs can't go in buildings. They do when they are at home.

Re: Bull Centaur comments here

PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 3:53 pm
by Hashuts Scion
Some thoughts along here,

If light armor, then fast cavalry.
If heavy armor, then normal special slot
New option: Chaos Armor +4 pts.

These are the fastest hardhitters of the army. They will not last long as they will be targeted. Beefing up with MR 1, or 2W would be fine, also how about 'moving shield wall' giving them an additional +2 save vs. missiles only.

The others have all solid ideas. I like all of them as I feel each as merits. But to be realistic, only one or two should be chosen. Maybe give the CD general a choice of what to take:
Temple Guard: MR 1
The Elite: Treat as heavy cavalry, charge bonus at any range (+2 S)
The Blessed: Reroll missed attacks
and so forth


I think they just need a little tweak to make them more lasting as well as a decision to take.

Re: Bull Centaur comments here

PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 9:07 pm
by Matt
Call me crazy, but can't you screen them with 65 points Move 9, core choice fast cav?
I see mounted marauders effectively screening chaos knights...

If 3 out of 4 got shot up, I think the answer may be a larger unit.

-Matt

Re: Bull Centaur comments here

PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 8:40 am
by mikkjel
Well, if a unit of wolf riders are needed to screen them to keep them alive, it should be somewhat reflected in the unit cost.

Re: Bull Centaur comments here

PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 10:52 am
by Hashuts Scion
Matt wrote:Call me crazy, but can't you screen them with 65 points Move 9, core choice fast cav?
I see mounted marauders effectively screening chaos knights...

If 3 out of 4 got shot up, I think the answer may be a larger unit.

-Matt


The problem with screening comes apparent with cannons and the one turn to clear away the screen. In the first case, for the screens to work, the unit behind needs to be close enough to be able to charge once the screen disappears. A cannon can go through the screen and hit the unit behind it.

In the second case, it takes a turn for the screeners to peel off to allow the BCs to charge. Again, this gives the opponent a turn to hit them with everything they got. And if the unit is small enough, then its combat effectiveness dissapates. Remember, declare charges, then move. Screeners prevent seeing the enemy, and thus cannot charge. OR I am wrong?

Re: Bull Centaur comments here

PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 12:26 am
by Matt
Hashuts Scion wrote:
Matt wrote:Call me crazy, but can't you screen them with 65 points Move 9, core choice fast cav?
I see mounted marauders effectively screening chaos knights...

If 3 out of 4 got shot up, I think the answer may be a larger unit.

-Matt


The problem with screening comes apparent with cannons and the one turn to clear away the screen. In the first case, for the screens to work, the unit behind needs to be close enough to be able to charge once the screen disappears. A cannon can go through the screen and hit the unit behind it.

In the second case, it takes a turn for the screeners to peel off to allow the BCs to charge. Again, this gives the opponent a turn to hit them with everything they got. And if the unit is small enough, then its combat effectiveness dissapates. Remember, declare charges, then move. Screeners prevent seeing the enemy, and thus cannot charge. OR I am wrong?


In you cannon example, I'd be thrilled if my opponent fired at the bullcentaurs. It isn't that tough to keep those cannons in your front arc until you make it into combat. At best, he gets 1 hit (unless you took Ranks of bull centaurs). I'd count my blessing that he chose so poorly with his heavy hitters.

In the 2nd case, yes, the screen does have to peel/panic off before the Bulls can charge. This isn't too hard either, you should be able to screen off some of the enemy to greatly limit your shooting exposure. Very few armies have significant firepower with mobility.

Keep in mind that those fleeing fast cav don't panic your Bulls Centaurs or dwarves.

If I can do it with M7 Orc Boar boyz (4+ armor) and goblin wolf riders (5+ armor), it should work just fine with the chaos dwarf versions.

-Matt

Re: Bull Centaur comments here

PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 6:37 am
by Voyager_3
Keep in mind that this screening unit can fail it's Animosity. So, effectively screwing up two units (them and screened Bull Centaurs). IMHO, with 1/3 chance that something goes wrong this tactic is too much unreliable.