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Re: Daemoneater version 2 comments here!

PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 2:40 pm
by Guy In Suit
You want a chaos chariot in a list where said chariot is twice as effective. I think it should be a fun cheap'o pump wagon esque death machine. Obviously that would be worth less than the current points cost. I DONT like how the impact hits every round differs so much from other chariots. Confusion is bad.


And how do you adopt and abortion? Sounds like a contradiction to me.

Re: Daemoneater version 2 comments here!

PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 2:56 pm
by mattbird
Larro wrote: I have yet to hear a compelling argument from Weakland or Birdoff as to why 150 pts. and no 4th wound, when coupled with M6, is somehow fair, in light of the 3 chariots in their price range that I've compared them to, ALL of which have better Movement and nice special rules. Drop the auto-grind down to d3+1, have it go last and not first in turns it doesn't charge, and bump it to 130-135. Why is this not a viable suggestion?

- Larry


(FYI, the proposed 150 pt version is still movement 7.)

first off, your suggestion is totally agreeable.

what I don't get is the fact that you are so completely and singularly focused on this one unit. It's bizarre to me. Why so many comments about the daemoneater, and virtually none about any other unit? The point cost of this one unit makes or breaks the test list for you?

Re: Daemoneater version 2 comments here!

PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 5:09 pm
by Aves
I think grinders rules reflect its fluff very well, although i have some doubts as to its comparability with other chariots.

D6+1 impact hits with S5 is what nearly every chariot inflicts charging, then there are 4 attacks of mounts and crew with strenght varied and attacks on occasions (chaos chariot vs DE chariot) minimum average would be 4 S5 hits + crew attacks. 100-120 points chariot should inflict 4 S5 hits and 3 S4. Now our meatgrinder has only average of 5 S5 hits, even with high potential of 8 hits its still comparable, please take into account that chariot is able to inflict 7 impacts so it doesnt look so tought does it, like slightly "odd" chariot, , lets have a look at 2nd turn , chariot only has its crew to fight, again average 4+ to hit, not much, also strenght bonuses for spear that any crew might have are no more, where Deamoneater still hits with D3+2, at high strenght, average is 4 at high strenght, with these being autohits. In any scenarios any of the chariots shouldnt break unit with corresponding points value. In the end i thing Deamoneater is great support, having 2 next to each other is indeed powerfull break combination, but its also true for any 2 chariots. At the expense of 2 special slots its not so overpowered.

Re: Daemoneater version 2 comments here!

PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 5:55 pm
by Guy In Suit
Actually moving it to rare and not changing anything might be a good option.

Re: Daemoneater version 2 comments here!

PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 7:38 pm
by Garrett
I like that idea. Then they basically compete with golems as the mid-range priced rare unit.

Re: Daemoneater version 2 comments here!

PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 8:15 pm
by Larro
You want a chaos chariot in a list where said chariot is twice as effective. I think it should be a fun cheap'o pump wagon esque death machine. Obviously that would be worth less than the current points cost. I DONT like how the impact hits every round differs so much from other chariots. Confusion is bad.


How is it twice as effective in a CD list?? Chariots are pretty fucking effective for HEs, DEs and CWs. 2+ chariots are staples in HEs, and 1+ are almost obligatory for good tourney DE and CW lists.

Moreover, as a previous poster pointed out, a Demoneater is significantly WORSE on the charge than a standard Chariot since it has ZERO crew attacks and only does impact. In subsequent turns, I'll agree that d3+2 is maybe +1 too many, and should do d3+1 in subsequent turns, NOT ASF, but to offset this, you need a 4th wound, and no more than 130-135 pts. Keep in mind that a Lion Chariot has 6 S5 attacks each subsequent round and will be getting 4 hits vs. most opponents, which is what the Demoneater is getting on average *now* before adjustments. And it causes Fear. And it has 4 wounds. And it's faster. And it has ASF crew. So again, why is the DE being so heavily penalized? If it does d3+1 S5 autohits, that's essentially the same output that a CW Chariot does in subsequent rounds with 2x S5 guys and 2 S4 attacks, and the 6 S5 of the HE Lion Chariot.

first off, your suggestion is totally agreeable.


Rockin.

what I don't get is the fact that you are so completely and singularly focused on this one unit. It's bizarre to me. Why so many comments about the daemoneater, and virtually none about any other unit? The point cost of this one unit makes or breaks the test list for you?


I've commented numerous times re: the Golems and how they're overpriced and grossly inferior to the already-inferior-and-rarely-taken Treekin, meaning NO ONE will take Golems outside of those going for theme/conversions.

I've also commented several times on the blatant neutering of the Earthshaker, for no good reason. Keep the old one, up it to 140 and call it a day, OR make this current BS version a Trebuchet-Plus, i.e. S10/S5, for 120 pts. or so, and give it the 5" radius template for shaking, etc. This current version will never be taken compared to the Hellcannon.

- Larry

Re: Daemoneater version 2 comments here!

PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 10:36 am
by Matt
Aves wrote:I think grinders rules reflect its fluff very well, although i have some doubts as to its comparability with other chariots.

D6+1 impact hits with S5 is what nearly every chariot inflicts charging, then there are 4 attacks of mounts and crew with strenght varied and attacks on occasions (chaos chariot vs DE chariot) minimum average would be 4 S5 hits + crew attacks. 100-120 points chariot should inflict 4 S5 hits and 3 S4. Now our meatgrinder has only average of 5 S5 hits, even with high potential of 8 hits its still comparable, please take into account that chariot is able to inflict 7 impacts so it doesnt look so tought does it, like slightly "odd" chariot, , lets have a look at 2nd turn , chariot only has its crew to fight, again average 4+ to hit, not much, also strenght bonuses for spear that any crew might have are no more, where Deamoneater still hits with D3+2, at high strenght, average is 4 at high strenght, with these being autohits. In any scenarios any of the chariots shouldnt break unit with corresponding points value. In the end i thing Deamoneater is great support, having 2 next to each other is indeed powerfull break combination, but its also true for any 2 chariots. At the expense of 2 special slots its not so overpowered.


If you want to look at averages, also look at outliers.
Having a minimum of 3 impact hits is really nice. For people like me who roll poorly often, I'd jump at the chance to trade crew attacks for another automatic hit.

I still don't see a valid reason why this chariot continues to do impact hits, when no other chariot does. Even chariots that really look like they should (Pump wagons) do not.
I also don't see a valid reason why the bull centaur doesn't fight, when chariot crew, often 3" or more back from the enemy, do get to fight.

I do like the idea of moving it into a rare choice, that way people can run an all M7 army, and fill every slot.

-Matt

Re: Daemoneater version 2 comments here!

PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 12:17 pm
by Larro
There's no rationale, it's just something that the designers thought would be cool, at the expense of regular game mechanics. That said, I don't think it's that hard to fathom. It operates like a mini-stank in HTH, no big deal really.

- Larry

Re: Daemoneater version 2 comments here!

PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 7:01 pm
by Grimstonefire
Not that I have enough interest in this list to comment much on the content, but with unrestricted BC in special, and fast cavalry in core (not counting), do you really need a chariot as well?

Seems to me it's just in there to cover an army weakness, when there are other things that could be much more useful (like a multiple shot anti infantry war machine).

I freely admit I don't know what exactly the new steam tank rules are, but if you are keeping this as is I would clarify that the subsequent attacks are not impact hits.

Designing tournie rules based on OOP rare models is a bit strange, but I would be tempted to drop the bull centaur crew and just turn this into a 3 wound monster with a full profile, make the bull centaur a handler (if you really must keep it), drop the auto hits in place of it's regular attacks, but keep the impact hits.

Re: Daemoneater version 2 comments here!

PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:56 pm
by Alric
Larro wrote:There's no rationale, it's just something that the designers thought would be cool, at the expense of regular game mechanics. That said, I don't think it's that hard to fathom. It operates like a mini-stank in HTH, no big deal really.

- Larry


Why dont you make this a daemonic or magic powered contruct ? It would fit in a chaos dwarf army better than a 'push cart'.


New Juggernaut

Since this is supposed to be a new list for future use, you should use the new trends in chaos dwarf army war machines. Think about the mounts for chaos armies, the juggernauts, a daemon with metal and mechanics bound to its flesh, this is what you need to be doing with units like a daemoneater.

Push Cart tech is low tech, Orc and Goblin army like, from 20 years ago. :orcs: