V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

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V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby mattbird » Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:39 am

comments here!
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Renufus » Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:48 pm

It's a shame that they're not ever going to be stubborn, as is they just really don't serve a big role in the army, as I've said before. There are several problems with this unit:

1) Too expensive to make effective use of fear
2) There's no reason to use their great weapons over hw+sh now that they have killing blow - points you're forced to spend on something you'll rarely want to use
3) Worse at being anvils than CD since they're so expensive, worse at being hammers than BC since they're so slow and only have one attack

Without some kind of special rule to help them out, ranked infantry units with great weapons just don't make any sense. At least, these are my initial impressions. I don't think I'm going to be using them as they are since Bull Centaurs are so much better, especially now that they have chaos armour.
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Aves » Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:30 pm

Rank infantry in army with 6" "move unit" spell is usefull,

1 but, if i can use KB with 1hw and shield i will in 70% of cases, the KB rule could bie tied to their great axes, no axe no kb. And fear is great as unit can afford losing to undead or demons by 1-2 points to be an anvil.
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Renufus » Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:48 pm

Aves wrote:Rank infantry in army with 6" "move unit" spell is usefull,

1 but, if i can use KB with 1hw and shield i will in 70% of cases, the KB rule could bie tied to their great axes, no axe no kb. And fear is great as unit can afford losing to undead or demons by 1-2 points to be an anvil.


The problem is that Warriors can also do this - attach a Daemonsmith to the unit and they get his fear immunity.
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby mattbird » Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:33 pm

KB as it is works with hand weapons, so I agree, you'd rarely use the great weapons.

I think this unit is OK as is. It's certainly not optimal, though. I might plunk 300 pts down for a 20-strong unit of them, compared to 240 for warriors w/ chaos armor, now that 2 daemoneaters are crazy expensive, and I would have an extra special slot...
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Larro » Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:07 pm

These guys are BARELY OK. Their points-cost is prohibitive, and the fact that they HAVE to come with the GW is horrific. They should come with Chaos Armor for 12 pts., and be able to get GWs for +2, and Shields for +1, giving you 15 per model total fully kitted out, and 13 per if you just want Ironbreaker status. Mandatory GWs sucks.

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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby adirangan » Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:23 pm

I never understood giving a unit fear if the main intent is to make the unit immune to fear. Why don't you just make the immortals "immune to fear, terror and panic" directly?

I wonder if it would make sense to have the immortals start out at like, 10-11 points with great axes (granting them killing blow), chaos armor and no shield. Then you could give them the option of exchanging their great axes (and killing blow power) for shields for 2-3 points per model. Then they have to choose between being a somewhat cheap shitty hammer and a more expensive but durable anvil.

Is the immortal's fluff that they are partly obsidian? If their flesh is actually part obsidian, I don't think you should be able to ignore their armor saves. I wonder if it would be too complicated to say that they have chaos armor which "cannot be ignored" (i.e., attacks which ignore armor saves cannot ignore this chaos armor, however, armor save reduction due to high strength attacks work just as well). Thus these guys get no save against a cannon or bolt-thrower, but they would get a save against a stone-thrower (which makes sense, if they are made of rock themselves). Similarly, a minotaur lord would chew through their save, but a skink with an ignore-armour-save weapon would still have to cut through their natural 4+ rockin obsidian six-pack.
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby mattbird » Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:31 pm

part of the costing is the base price of a chaos dwarf warrior with chaos armor and shield, which is 12 pts. That is a solid cost, and well worth it. Adding in str 4, WS5, and fear is worth 3 pts, (go by the normal dwarf / longbeard cost upgrade here) which puts you at 15. At that point, you are really getting the great weapon for free.

Now also bear in mind that those who have play tested with this unit have liked them and thought them worth the points.
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Larro » Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:39 pm

Nobody wants an anvil unit to cost 15 pts. per model. Ironbreakers don't cost that. Granted they don't cause Fear, but Causing Fear is largely irrelevant with these guys given the fact you have Fear-causing Demonsmiths. Coupled with the fact they're too expensive to ever truly be numerous enough to outnumber a majority of foes, who needs Fear at all? I'd much rather prefer an Ironbreaker-type unit in the CD list - WS5, S4 dudes, with the option for GWs, and keeping the Killing Blow.

You charge 12 for a Chaos Dwarf w/ Chaos Armor and Shield - these guys cost 15 for the same armor save, but gain a Greatweapon which they're almost NEVER USE, Fear Immunity which is cheaply obtained elsewhere, and Killing Blow, which is the only truly worthwhile attribute here.

Take a step back and let that all sink in - 3 pts. more per model + a special slot for a unit that's only marginally better (if at all) to a CD Warrior w/ Chaos Armor + Demonsmith unit (Demonsmiths need to go somewhere, and this is as good a spot as any).

My suggestion is to drop these guys to 13 pts. per models with Chaos Armor + Shield, and just keep the Killing Blow. Dump Fear entirely, and make the Great Weapons an exchange for the shield for the same 13 pts. This way you get a choppy unit or an anvil unit, both for the same price, and very similar to how Grave Guard function for VC at the moment - except these guys have better stats and a 4+ save vs. the 5+ save of the GG (when given GWs). This allows flexibility and prices it properly, instead of giving these guys some caught in between special rule which makes them sub-optimal, a la Black Orcs being "armed to da teeth" - nobody wants to overpay for mandatory weapon options.

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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Larro » Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:43 pm

Wait a minute - WHO genuinely likes these guys, or think they have a serious use over CDs w/ CA/Shields? They are inferior in all but the most specialized, gimmicky lists. Almost everyone will be taking a Demonsmith, most likely 2 or 3 - and guess where the best (and safest) spots for them are? IN CD UNITS, particularly Warriors, as it maximizes their Fear-causing.

Obsidian Guard have essentially no role as configured currently. They're too expensive and inferior to Bull Centaurs and even the overpriced Golems to be hammers, and way too expensive to be a worthwhile Anvil. They're not Stubborn, their Fear is useless, and they're 3 pts. more per model meaning less bodies in your army. As a competitive tournament player, these guys would essentially never make it into a 2250 CD list of mine.

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