V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby mattbird » Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:49 pm

3 games played so far with them (which is hardly enough to be conclusive); Ronen liked them last night in 2 games with 2 units of 20. Renefus liked them running 1 unit of 12.
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Guy In Suit » Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:54 pm

Killing blow is damn good. I think they need magical attacks though and immunity to fire. Drop the fear if that would make them too good. Then they'd be unique and interesting.
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Larro » Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:08 pm

Whatever you say. I just don't really understand the points on these guys at all. Look at Chaos Warriors in comparison. Look at their save, their WS, their I, their Strength, their Movement. Look at their point cost. Then look at how many (or rather, how few) people you see fielding them. Then back off and realize that Obsidian Guard are a unit in a list that operates on static CR to win games, and you'll see that everything CWs do to excel by being unit size 12-15, these guys DON'T do. They're hamstrung by their GWs, their low Init, and their higher points cost, all for abilities that make them grossly inferior/overpriced to their other elite Dwarven brethren. Give me Ironbreakers any day over these guys. If I want Fear immunity so badly, I'll throw a Smith inside. Or use a Magic Banner.

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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby mattbird » Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:22 pm

well, I laugh at your Chaos Warrior comparison. They are the 2nd best unit in the chaos mortals list, and I regularly field them, and do well with them. Most chaos generals like them and field them.

and- causing fear is better than being immune to fear, and you know it. ;)
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Larro » Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:18 pm

Causing Fear is only marginally better, and most of the time it is only better if you can actually AFFORD TO OUTNUMBER YOUR OPPONENT - which these guys can't.

And yes, that's my point - Chaos Warriors are cheaper than these guys, and infinitely better. Throw in the fact that CWs do NOT need static CR to win fights, meaning you need less of them to be effective (12-15, opposed to 20+), and you've got a fantastic unit, compared to a lousy one. How do you not see this?

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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Aves » Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:49 pm

How do you not see this?


Start thinking outside the box, WoC dont have shooting infantry as a core. So for obvious reasons they have to be better in close combat. Also chaos wariors do panic from fleeing marauders, unlike CD not feeling from they meatshield units of rabble and hobgobbos.

Compared to core CD's obidians guard is lil bit better for lil more points, extra point of S does the difference, with great weapons and 6 model from unit of 15 can work great, if u make them charge, with units of trash to bend incomming charges and 6" of extra move.

Also this guys should be effective against heavy armored troops, -3 to armor save and killing blow.

Would they benefit from stubborn, yes, will stubborn happen, could be its still being tested.
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Garrett » Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:10 pm

I still think that they need Stubborn, or everyone's just going to use the hero special character if they use them at all. A unit this slow, this expensive, and this supposedly elite needs to stick in combat. If you don't want to give it to them through their inherent abilities, make them buy a banner that does it. The biggest problem I have with the CD list as it stands at this point is that it's a dwarf list with nothing stubborn in it. That just strikes me as completely out of character for, well, dwarves.
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Matt » Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:04 am

Has anyone actually fought against these when they used their great weapons?

I say, drop them to strength 3. Give them "enscrolled great weapons". This would give them S6 with the great axe, and S3 otherwise.
If you had to choose between a 2+ armor save and S3 attacks, or a 4+ armor save and S6 attacks, it might encourage the use of the great axe more.

Alternately, give the axe killing blow, and not their hand weapons.

Something to encourage the use of the axe.


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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Renufus » Sat Jun 13, 2009 4:28 pm

Are they optimal? No. Mandatory great weapons suck the big one for an infantry unit with killing blow, especially when they can get +2 save from hw+s instead. The fear is also not all that great unless you've severely weakened the unit in some other way beforehand. I used them against Lizardmen and they ended up autobreaking a Slann which scored me a huge bucket of points. With that said, looking back I feel like they didn't really do all that much that a unit of Centaurs couldn't have done as well or better. Had I not autobroken the thing, I would have most likely just beaten its reptilian skull in with the Centaurs who were also responsible for killing 10 of his Temple Guard buddies on the charge thanks to the Amulet.

They're not a bad unit - in the context of the rest of the list they're priced around where they should be. They just tend to suffer from Chaos Warrior syndrome, which is to say that there's really not much they can do that their mounted equivalent can't do, and without the limitations of being slow as molasses. It's really only an issue if you want to min-max your army, if you just want to use them for the cool factor or because you've got some really awesome models you want to use, they won't let you down.
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Matt » Sat Jun 13, 2009 8:47 pm

Renufus wrote:Are they optimal? No. Mandatory great weapons suck the big one for an infantry unit with killing blow, especially when they can get +2 save from hw+s instead. The fear is also not all that great unless you've severely weakened the unit in some other way beforehand. I used them against Lizardmen and they ended up autobreaking a Slann which scored me a huge bucket of points.


How's that? The slaan in the unit of temple guard is immune to psychology and stubborn. The fear should have done nothing.

I don't think they are horrible, but having a reason to use the great weapon would be nice. I know my dwarven hammers have never used their great weapons. Which is a bit sad for a unit named after the great weapon they are armed with.

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