V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Renufus » Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:48 am

Matt wrote:How's that? The slaan in the unit of temple guard is immune to psychology and stubborn. The fear should have done nothing.


The Temple Guard got smooshed. Believe me, I've been playing this game long enough to know that TG are ITP and stubborn with a Slann. That's why it took 3 units and a hero for me to even think about fighting them.
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Matt » Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:13 am

Renufus wrote:
Matt wrote:How's that? The slaan in the unit of temple guard is immune to psychology and stubborn. The fear should have done nothing.


The Temple Guard got smooshed. Believe me, I've been playing this game long enough to know that TG are ITP and stubborn with a Slann. That's why it took 3 units and a hero for me to even think about fighting them.


Ok, I'll rephrase my question.
If in combat you killed the slaans whole unit, what did the fear really do? Sounds like the Slaan lost combat by 7 or more, meaning he's only holding on a "2" regardless of you having fear or not.

In expensive units, "fear" more often means, I don't break from fear. That, and the off chance somebody actually has to test, and fails, the Ld to charge you.



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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Renufus » Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:41 pm

Matt wrote:Ok, I'll rephrase my question.
If in combat you killed the slaans whole unit, what did the fear really do? Sounds like the Slaan lost combat by 7 or more, meaning he's only holding on a "2" regardless of you having fear or not.


I didn't kill it in one go, it took to the second round to finish them all off. You might just be better off reading the battle report.
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Aves » Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:13 pm

Oi, Oi, guys this examples are out of question,

Temple Guards are realy tough when accompanied by LORD level character. Dont compare this, as this unit gains in 2000 + points battle but loses in 1999 and less.
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby DarkbloodSkullpulper » Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:54 pm

I agree that the obsidian guard don't really give much that CD warriors w/ chaos armor wouldn't, and while the GW is a nice option, there are only limited instances when i'd ever use it. While this may not be a popular opinion, one way to encourage the use of obsidian guard would be to take away the chaos armor option for standard warriors. Seems fluffier, to me, to have only the Ob Guard, Bull Centaurs, and characters have access to chaos armor.
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Renufus » Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:11 am

DarkbloodSkullpulper wrote:I agree that the obsidian guard don't really give much that CD warriors w/ chaos armor wouldn't, and while the GW is a nice option, there are only limited instances when i'd ever use it. While this may not be a popular opinion, one way to encourage the use of obsidian guard would be to take away the chaos armor option for standard warriors. Seems fluffier, to me, to have only the Ob Guard, Bull Centaurs, and characters have access to chaos armor.


So your solution for making this unit better is to make worse something that's balanced? How does that work?

All that will do is push people into using 3 units of Annihilators for Core. They still won't use Obs Guard because they'll still be the poor man's Bull Centaurs. The only way to fix them is to actually fix them, otherwise you're just shifting the problem and never actually resolving it.
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby DarkbloodSkullpulper » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:05 am

Good point that the Ob Guard would still compare unfavorably to Bull Centaurs. I think people would still take warriors as core even without chaos armor because of the point differential between warriors and Ob Guard and because of the need in the list for big infantry blocks. The eruption gun could give a bit extra incentive for warriors, though it doesn't currently seem to give good value for the points.

I'd like to see a balance where both warriors and Ob Guard are good, viable choices for their slots. Right now, it seems that warriors w/ chaos armor get the nod mostly because they are cheaper (not having a great weapon as part of their profile) and don't take a special slot. It'd be nice if there was something more substantive to distinguish the two. Making Ob Guard better would be an option, though I'd hate so see their points cost go up even higher.

Other ideas: Stubborn with a HP in the unit? Banner that is Ob Guard only? I liked the "never ignore armor saves" rule, but that's hard to explain, novel to the game system, and messes with established game dynamics
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Larro » Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:12 am

The way to make Obsidian Guard viable, as I have already mentioned, is to dump their stupid mandatory GW, so you can take "cheap"(ish) OG with a 2+ save, WS5 and S4 Killing Blow, for 13 pts. No one wants to be FORCED to take a GW and then have to go paying for the shield, when the shield is the prize selection and will be used 90%+ of the time. Otherwise, there's no sense taking these guys over CDWs w/ sh+ca, since your likely to have a Demonsmith in there as it is, and causing Fear is not nearly as important as being IMMUNE TO FEAR is, given the fact that the latter is substantially cheaper than the former, and when your army is light on Fear-causing bodies and relatively expensive, will unlikely outnumber anyone enough to benefit from Fear-causing + Outnumbering as it is.

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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Garrett » Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:28 pm

Say it with me now.
They need Stubborn. These guys did really well for me...when I had the special character with them that made them unbreakable. Every other time I've used them, they've gotten swarmed and nickle and dimed to death.
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Renufus » Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:07 pm

Garrett wrote:Say it with me now.
They need Stubborn. These guys did really well for me...when I had the special character with them that made them unbreakable. Every other time I've used them, they've gotten swarmed and nickle and dimed to death.


I've been pushing for Stubborn for a long time but from what I've been told Kevin is dead set 100% against it.
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