V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Garrett » Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:15 am

I'd really like to know the reason why. They're freaking dwarves. Evil dwarves, but dwarves. Hell, the Evil(tm) part should make them MORE stubborn.
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Matt » Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:05 am

Renufus wrote:
Garrett wrote:Say it with me now.
They need Stubborn. These guys did really well for me...when I had the special character with them that made them unbreakable. Every other time I've used them, they've gotten swarmed and nickle and dimed to death.


I've been pushing for Stubborn for a long time but from what I've been told Kevin is dead set 100% against it.

I like that the new high elf and dark elf books split up the dualities of the armies. Phoenix guard are nothing like black guard. Swordmasters and executioners are very different... and so on. It gives the army a better feel than, "look, a spiky hammerer with lots of skulls and an axe!". If they were stubborn, they'd be hammerers, with axes.

You want something to set them out?
What if rather than gaining a bonus themselves, they took something away?
Any unit, friend or foe, in base contact with Obsidian Guard lose "Stubborn" if they posses it. Throw in some fluff on their black armor draining the horror and will to fight out of the enemy.

-Matt
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Renufus » Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:09 am

Matt wrote:
Renufus wrote:
Garrett wrote:Say it with me now.
They need Stubborn. These guys did really well for me...when I had the special character with them that made them unbreakable. Every other time I've used them, they've gotten swarmed and nickle and dimed to death.


I've been pushing for Stubborn for a long time but from what I've been told Kevin is dead set 100% against it.

I like that the new high elf and dark elf books split up the dualities of the armies. Phoenix guard are nothing like black guard. Swordmasters and executioners are very different... and so on. It gives the army a better feel than, "look, a spiky hammerer with lots of skulls and an axe!". If they were stubborn, they'd be hammerers, with axes.

You want something to set them out?
What if rather than gaining a bonus themselves, they took something away?
Any unit, friend or foe, in base contact with Obsidian Guard lose "Stubborn" if they posses it. Throw in some fluff on their black armor draining the horror and will to fight out of the enemy.

-Matt


An ability like that would either be incredibly overpowered when used on units that rely on being stubborn or entirely useless on units that don't have it. It's a totally blind hit-or-miss ability that can never be truly balanced, only one extreme or the other. Definitely not something I would like to see.
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Larro » Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:17 am

Stubborn will only make these already prohibitively expensive models cost even MORE points. You know what they need instead of Stubborn? A points-reduction! S4 WS5 Killing Blow with a 2+ Save for 13 pts. is good to go in my book, and if you want your choppy variant, +1 point and exchange of Shield for GW gives you that as well.

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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Garrett » Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:58 pm

Well, obviously I mean stubborn at their current points cost. I'd be okay with your version too, although I think that potentially makes them cheaper than kitted out 'regular' CD warriors, which might be a problem.
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Border Reiver » Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:00 pm

Summary of Larro's position:

Same Stats
Same special abilities (cause fear, Killing Blow)
Almost the same kit : Chaos Armour, Shield, hand weapon, Option to take a GW in exchange for the shield and +1 pt
Points cost - 13 pts

This would be in line with the cost of a Dwarf Iron breaker +1 pt for cause Fear, and +1 pt for KB. I feel that this would be undercosted in comparison with a CD warrior with Chaos Armour and a shield as the OG would cost 1 pt more the Warrior for far superior stats.
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby elrodogg » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:02 pm

I like 13pt for chaos armor, great weapon and shield with killing blow and fear as the abilities. Maybe 12 with the option of +1 for a shield. I like the great weapons being mandatory.

For this unit, you have to price each model based on how much you want a 20 strong unit to be. I think 300pts for a 20 strong unit sporting a full command is about right.
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Larro » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:19 pm

Border Reiver wrote:Summary of Larro's position:

Same Stats
Same special abilities (cause fear, Killing Blow)
Almost the same kit : Chaos Armour, Shield, hand weapon, Option to take a GW in exchange for the shield and +1 pt
Points cost - 13 pts

This would be in line with the cost of a Dwarf Iron breaker +1 pt for cause Fear, and +1 pt for KB. I feel that this would be undercosted in comparison with a CD warrior with Chaos Armour and a shield as the OG would cost 1 pt more the Warrior for far superior stats.


First, the problem here is twofold. A CD Warrior with CA IS OVERPRICED ALREADY. If you want to start comparing shit to Ironbreakers, let's start there. The CD Warrior with Shield is as expensive OR MORE EXPENSIVE, for S3, WS4. How are you not seeing this?

Next, Obsidian Guard with mandatory GWs and all these BS extra rules make them prohibitively expensive and inferior to begin with. 15 pts. for a 2+ Save and some crappy GW, or else 14 pts. and a 4+ Save. For what? Causing Fear, which no one needs or wants? Give me Grave Guard over these clowns any day of the week, and by a MILE.

There is a problem with game design when you can look at a choice and just laugh at how inferior it is comparatively to another unit that fills the same role, within the exact same book. These guys at 15 pts. are laugh-worthy. Give me a Chaos Warrior with 2As, the same WS, better init and movement, and equal armor, any day over these guys. Not even close.

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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby mattbird » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:53 pm

CD warriors with Chaos armor are not underpriced, as far as I am concerned, based on the half dozen games I have played, as well as others' playtest games. Core 2+ save, T4 infantry is really really good.

If we drop the great weapon from obsidian guard, then I'd say 14 pts may be fair. They are clearly better than ironbreakers (Larry, get real- Fear is a huge rule in this game), so no way can be lower than 14 pts.
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby elrodogg » Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:07 pm

I gotta go with Larry on this one. 15pts is 2 too many as you're paying 75pts a rank for a unit that simply cannot function in small numbers. Look at the total cost of the unit. In order to be effective you need 20 minimum, with command that means you have a 330pt unit. There is no way to make that unit worth 330 outside of giving it even more special rules. 290 is where it's at for this unit.

The comparison to dwarfs and their cost is a bit skewed. All dwarfs are overcosted. Drop every single dwarf 2pts and then you have the appropriate cost of the army. Dwarfs also have access to runic standards which cover their deficiencies to fear/terror.
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