V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Larro » Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:10 pm

As far as your concerned? Unfortunately for us, your concern matters more than anyone elses, yet you remain thickheaded with this. What don't you understand about Ironbreakers = 13 pts., Chaos Dwarfs = 13 pts., for inferior stats? The fact that they're CORE is the only defense for pricing them at 12 pts. They're S3, WS4. Tell me S4 WS5 isn't worth +1 point, because apparently in your mind, +1S and +1WS = worthless, since you're telling me 13 pts. is legit for these guys.

As for Obsidian Guard, Ronen made a viable suggestion as well, but you again ignore it. 12 pts. for the GWs, +1 for Shield is fine if you want mandatory GWs. Otherwise, you could even go 13 pts. with Shield, +1 for GW. And just for comparisons sake, Grave Guard are 12 pts with a 3+ Save, KB and Fear, and M4. These Obsidian Guard have WS5, and a 2+ Save, but M3, and don't come back to life, AND ARE MORE EXPENSIVE. Stop acting like I'm so far off-base here.

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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Larro » Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:12 pm

Ronen Warrior wrote:The comparison to dwarfs and their cost is a bit skewed. All dwarfs are overcosted. Drop every single dwarf 2pts and then you have the appropriate cost of the army. Dwarfs also have access to runic standards which cover their deficiencies to fear/terror.


Which further illustrates the problems with the current CD Chaos Armor and Obsidian Guard pricing. They're OVERPRICED even by overpriced Dwarf standards!

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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby mattbird » Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:41 pm

Larro wrote:As far as your concerned? Unfortunately for us, your concern matters more than anyone elses, yet you remain thickheaded with this. What don't you understand about Ironbreakers = 13 pts., Chaos Dwarfs = 13 pts., for inferior stats? The fact that they're CORE is the only defense for pricing them at 12 pts. They're S3, WS4. Tell me S4 WS5 isn't worth +1 point, because apparently in your mind, +1S and +1WS = worthless, since you're telling me 13 pts. is legit for these guys.


first off, chill out. what version of chaos dwarf warriors cost 13 pts? hw/shield/chaos armor is 12, so I assume you are adding great weapons to the equation?

Larro wrote: As for Obsidian Guard, Ronen made a viable suggestion as well, but you again ignore it. 12 pts. for the GWs, +1 for Shield is fine if you want mandatory GWs. Otherwise, you could even go 13 pts. with Shield, +1 for GW. And just for comparisons sake, Grave Guard are 12 pts with a 3+ Save, KB and Fear, and M4. These Obsidian Guard have WS5, and a 2+ Save, but M3, and don't come back to life, AND ARE MORE EXPENSIVE. Stop acting like I'm so far off-base here.

- Larry


I'm comparing them directly to Ironbreakers, the same as you were in your first comparison. That is the closest thing that exists to Obsidian Guard. Let's not mix apples and oranges. Ironbreakers are 13 pts. Add fear. Add killing blow. No way can Obsidian Guard be less than 14 pts. If you want to keep having this debate, RESPOND TO EXACTLY THIS. I and others have posted it before numerous times, and you keep ignoring it.
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby elrodogg » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:31 am

mattbird wrote:I'm comparing them directly to Ironbreakers, the same as you were in your first comparison. That is the closest thing that exists to Obsidian Guard. Let's not mix apples and oranges. Ironbreakers are 13 pts. Add fear. Add killing blow. No way can Obsidian Guard be less than 14 pts. If you want to keep having this debate, RESPOND TO EXACTLY THIS. I and others have posted it before numerous times, and you keep ignoring it.


Matt, I genuinely believe the comparison to Ironbreakers is skewed. They are overpriced, but hey that's what happens when you have one of the oldest army books and the game consistently makes elite infantry cheaper or capable of acting without full ranks. While I see the argument for making them more expensive on a trooper by trooper basis, for 1 pt you get fear and killing blow, I think that's the wrong viewpoint to have.

I think you take the total cost of the unit that will be played and go from there. The choices really are 290, 310 or 330 (13, 14, 15pts each) + magic banner to taste. 330pts for a fully ranked unit with command despite the stats, fear and killing blow is too expensive. Things should cost the most people will be willing to pay for them, for me that number is 290.
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Larro » Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:05 am

Exactly what Ronen said.

However, I will respond to your nonsense. The problem is that Obsidian Guard are NOT +1 pt. more than Ironbreakers, it's that they are +2 pts. more. For 14 pts., you don't get a shield, you get a cruddy GW option and a 4+ save. Give me Ironbreakers at 13 pts. vs. this 4+ save GW BS at 14. Add in the fact that Killing Blow is way less valuable on a S6 model than it is on say, S4 Grave Guard, and you've got a losing combination.

If they were 14 pts. fully kitted out, OR 14 pts. with the option for a shield or GW swap, then you might be able to sell me on their cost-effectiveness, and even then, they'd be overpriced. They're a RnF unit. You NEED 20 of them. They've got 1 attack and won't win combats without static res, so you're paying a super premium for a Fear-causing ability that (1) is totally unnecessary given the abundance of Demonsmiths, and (2) overpriced. I'd sooner hope you'd dump Fear altogether and make these guys 12 or 13 pts. total, since they just don't need it.

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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby mattbird » Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:30 am

Honestly, Ironbreakers are one of the best units in the dwarf army, so let's not call them overcosted.

seeing as how I have already said I think Obsidian Guard could be 14 pts w/ shield, no great weapon, I believe we are all in basic agreement. So, can we put this to bed for the moment?

This unit will not make or break the book if they are 13 pts, 14 pts, or 15 pts.




There are 2 major things that I think WILL make or break the book that we really do need feedback on; magic and blunderbusses. I'd also like to see some input on sneaky gits.
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby elrodogg » Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:49 am

mattbird wrote:Honestly, Ironbreakers are one of the best units in the dwarf army, so let's not call them overcosted.


You gone lost your mind son. :lol:
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby mattbird » Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:53 am

If I haven't already, I may be starting to right about now.
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Grimstonefire » Fri Jun 26, 2009 2:47 pm

Unless they change the points for gromril armour to 3pts for dwarfs (more reasonable), I think Ironbreakers are reasonably priced. Dwarfs could be a little cheaper in general, but that is not for this army book to sort out. ;) 6 pts basic for regular dwarf, 8 for 'elite' dwarf (before all armour and weapons.

So comparing them is a good starting point.

V3 Obsidian Guard have effectively got killing blow and fear for free, which is an amazingly cheap bundle deal imo... (14 pts - GW + shield = 13)

I would be tempted to swap fear for -1AS Armour Piercing. That could realistically be more balanced as free (or the 1 point saving from what gromril should be). Or more like 15 pts/ model.
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Larro » Fri Jun 26, 2009 3:29 pm

The problem with Obsidian Guard isn't their statline. They're a solid "paper" unit choice, but their points cost and the fact they have jack of all trades syndrome a la Black Orcs, means they are simply an inferior unit. If you could get a basic Obsidian Guard as they are now, with CA and Shield for 13 pts., and have the option to swap GWs for Shields, or maybe pay +1 pt. for the GW, you'd have a winning unit. Right now, M3, low initiative, bad armor if using the GW, and paying through the nose for abilities which are mitigated (Killing Blow S6 GWs are worth less than lesser-strength KB attacks, and Fear is less important to an LD9/LD10 army with Fear-causing Heroes) keep these guys are bottom-end choices in this book full of average-at-best units.

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