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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:43 am
by mattbird
Just as a general guideline in these discussions- the base cost for this unit (assuming chaos armor and shield) has to start with the Dwarf Ironbreakers' cost of 13 pts. Any added abilities have to increase that cost. There is no way we could get the general gaming community on board with anything that does not take the current cost of such a similar unit into account. You have to realize that the people playtesting here are only a very small part of the larger gaming community who must come to accept the book as tourney-legal.

If you do not think that Ironbreakers are a good value in the game, then please accept that it is OK that this unit be equally not a good value, in your opinion. Nobody is forcing to to field Obsidian Guard. This is the game of Warhammer as it exists today. We need to fit into that framework.

I have read all the arguments to the contrary of the above, so there's no need to rehash them. SO PLEASE DO NOT REHASH THEM!

Feel free to continue these discussions, I am reading them

Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:15 pm
by Grimstonefire
Ok. The V3 Obsidian guard were too cheap for those rules/ equipment if you are sticking to Ironbreaker standards.

Another version then, reasonably good against most things but not that 'ard.

Obsidian guard 13pts - Chaos Armour, Killing Blow, Hand Weapon
+2 pts Additional hand weapon
+1 pt shield

Cheap enough that you can take a decent unit. Admitedly they would really benefit from something like stubborn (making them base cost 14pts), but they could start to get expensive then.

Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:26 pm
by Larro
14 pts. for an Ironbreaker + Killing Blow sounds fair to me. You don't need Fear.

- Larry

Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:43 pm
by method
agreed

Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:22 pm
by Renufus
What Larro said. I'd be happy with 14pt KB Ironbreakers with the option for xhw or GW.

Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:27 pm
by DarkbloodSkullpulper
Count me aboard I don't think you'll see too many playtesters making serious objections to 14 point 2+ save OG w/extra weapon options, unless they are throwing out random requests for more special/unique rules. I think there's already plenty of unusual abilities in this list.

Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:23 pm
by Larro
Glad to see at least a few people on this board think I've got some good suggestions and aren't all out to kill me. ;)

- Larry

Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:26 am
by Zhorn
Half of the power of (infantry) units lie in their ability to take interesting magic banners (just think black guard with and without ASF).
14 pts KB ironbreakers is a very expensive, breakable unit. But since that's the basis for this unit and any more abilities (and therefore points) tacked on will only lower the presence on the table due to high points cost the developers could probably think more into the direction of "interesting" magic banner options.

A single interesting magic banner is able to make an otherwise "weak" unit into a nobrainer. This is not to say that i think OG are "weak" to begin with (or need to become a nobrainer :lol: ) but i hope you get what i'm saying here.

A set of interesting magic banners might solve all of the problems this unit is currently experiencing. Need another special rule? Tack on banner X! Need another stat point? Tack on banner Y!

In closing i'd say Larro's idea is probably the most workable, making them "same-same but different" to ironbreakers while keeping the cost without going overboard on special rules.

Any further problems this unit might encounter in actual gameplay could easily be solved via magic banners (eg. bring back the old +1AS banner, 75 pts and up the allowance of OG to 75 pts, too).

Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:27 am
by Grimstonefire
@Zhorn

That is an idea I have not considered before for CD, giving them a Daemons of Chaos style banner option for each unit (a choice of a couple of unique banners for each unit, specifically beneficial to each unit). You could also have a very small selection of ones from a generic list.

You could include an immune to panic, fear and terror syle rule if general joins them. (no cost)

Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 6:24 pm
by Hashuts Scion
Larro wrote:14 pts. for an Ironbreaker + Killing Blow sounds fair to me. You don't need Fear.

- Larry


Larry, I do agree with you. Fear is only one thing that can set a unit apart, but it is not necessary. I just pointed out what edge is does give. :) There are other options. Your suggestion above is a valid option. The question is do they get killing blow with any weapon or just the gw. If any weapon, can you take an additional weapon and get a 2nd chance at killing blow? Now that, would be scary. A unit of 5 across, each with additional hw and a champion would give 11 chances at such. Hmmm....