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Re: Juggernaut version 2 comments here

PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 11:02 pm
by Hashuts Scion
So correct me if I'm wrong on these points:

A dragon costs about the same. The dragon takes up a hero slot. It has 20" move/charge. It can breath fire. It causes terror. It has T6 and a bunch of wounds. It is a mount for a hero/lord.

The jugger costs about the same. It takes up a rare slot, unless a mount in which it loses this status. It can breath phlegm. It causes terror. It has T7 and a bunch of wounds.

There are a lot of similarities. However the dragon can move 20" in any direction if it wants. This allows it to get out of range of most chargers. The jugger has 10 crew that it can fight/shoot with as well. When it charges, it causes impact hits.

I am starting to think that although we all want this unit to be better in one way or another, especially because of ranked units, I can say that about ANY big time single character/unit. My friend plays night goblins, not orcs, and plays them with 30+ size. Every unit has max Combat Resolution. He doesn't win every battle, but knowing you are facing an automatic +5 modifier before any blows are struck is daunting.

Stubborn is the one thing that is perhaps a big sticking point. With it, and the jugger becomes nigh unstoppable. Without it, it tends to get overwhelmed by large units. Well, that is what tactics are meant to do. If you charge with it without support, then you may indeed get more than you bargained for. BUT, if you arrange for it to get the first charge, and prevent flank attacks, I think you will find it is a worthy unit.

Re: Juggernaut version 2 comments here

PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 4:42 am
by Aves
Jugger does cost 330 pts, and has no terror. Also its much slower than dragon.

My point was that unit for halp of jugger's points can easily kill it, then theres a problem, but maby stubborn at LD 8?

Re: Juggernaut version 2 comments here

PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 6:46 am
by mattbird
I don't think the about comparison is completely accurate; for instance, a level 4 mage costs 330 points as well, but will lose to a ranked unit.

There's been a ton of back and forth about this unit, and I had a few doubts about it's effectiveness myself- until I tried it in a few games. Hashut's Scion has summed up my thoughts nicely. It's a good all around unit that's worth taking in many cases, but not an uber-game changing one. It fulfills 2 roles at once that are really important to Dwarf armies; multi-shot, low powered shooting, and high-strength damage.

One thing to keep in mind overall is that we need to keep the power level down on this army, particularly when it comes to brand new units/rules, in order to gain acceptance. So it's OK if things are overcosted / underpowered.

I'd suggest giving it a go in a few games and see how you feel about it.

Re: Juggernaut version 2 comments here

PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 12:52 pm
by Aves
Is Jugger a large target?

Re: Juggernaut version 2 comments here

PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 1:09 pm
by mattbird
yup! it does not cause terror, though.

Re: Juggernaut version 2 comments here

PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 3:32 pm
by Hashuts Scion
mattbird wrote:yup! it does not cause terror, though.


Thanks for catching my mistake there! ;) Should it? After all, it is deamon possessed, similar to the Hellcannon which also causes terror.

Re: Juggernaut version 2 comments here

PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 9:38 pm
by Aves
It is said that Juggeernaut counts as siege tower, what about embarking, dattacking defenders on walls?

Re: Juggernaut version 2 comments here

PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 11:04 am
by mattbird
uh. I have no clue! I would think it follows all standard rules for such things. I never play seige.

Re: Juggernaut version 2 comments here

PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 5:14 pm
by Aves
Thing is that troops in siege tower can attack walls, but Juggers crew cant just leave the Jugger, on the other hand siege towers can move certain amount to get coser to the walls, before battle starts, but only in siege scenario.

Re: Juggernaut version 2 comments here

PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 10:55 am
by Matt
Hashuts Scion wrote:So correct me if I'm wrong on these points:

A dragon costs about the same. The dragon takes up a hero slot. It has 20" move/charge. It can breath fire. It causes terror. It has T6 and a bunch of wounds. It is a mount for a hero/lord.

The jugger costs about the same. It takes up a rare slot, unless a mount in which it loses this status. It can breath phlegm. It causes terror. It has T7 and a bunch of wounds.


Here's where you are wrong.

The jugger is Unit Strength 15, giving a distinctive advantage over the US 7 dragon & Rider.
The jugger can be taken by a chaos dwarf hero.
If you wanted to, you could take 4 of them.

Because they don't fly, it looks like you can actually have them join units. (only flying monsters are banned from joining units). If so, putting them into fully ranked units with musicians and standards makes a pretty hard unit.

It would be interesting to see a Max juggernaught list. Kind of like a max steggadon list, only it's T7 & unit strength 15.

-Matt

-Matt