Mattbird report 1: Dwarfs of Chaos vs. HE

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Mattbird report 1: Dwarfs of Chaos vs. HE

Postby mattbird » Fri May 22, 2009 9:40 am

I tried to fit in most of the new units, skipping magic altogether as I am certain the current version will be changed:

Lord, GW, "dispel scroll"
BSB, GW, extra dispel dice

2x20 warriors, hw/shield/chaos armor, command, eruption cannon, 1 with war banner,
2x15 blunderbuss, command
2x20 rabble

5 bull centaurs
2 daemoneaters

Juggernaut
Hellcannon

Andrew had a mixed HE list with medium magic, some shooting, lots of little elite units, 2 chariots, bsb with +d6 combat res, etc.

I think it was Andrew's first time with HE, and he played them terribly. We called the game on turn 4 or 5 when I was in the process of mopping up.

Overview: I LOVE the way the army plays. It is night and day more fun to use this list than the Rav Hordes version. I think apart from magic, with some minor tweaks to the list it's close to where it should be.

Warriors with chaos armor
Good unit, not over-powerful, about where they should be. I lost most of 1 unit to magic, neither saw combat, but held the center nicely

Blunderbussers
Got shot up and died, which they typically do.

Rabble
didn't get to do anything

swivel guns
GREAT little unit, I think the rules are good to go. They are hard to kill via shooting, due to war machine randomization. The shooting fills a huge gap in the CD arsenal, as nothing else can deal with redirectors or light units as well. In this game they accounted for an eagle, a dragon prince or 2, most of a unit of spearmen. A little overcosted- BUT THEY SHOULD BE. They are a new made up unit, and fill a big hole in the army. I'd keep them just as is.

Bull centaurs
know 'em, love 'em. I'd give a magic banner option, xtra hand weapon option, and call it a day.

Daemoneaters
This unit needs some work, as it garnered complaints in both my games. They took out most of the HE army. Too good for 105. The changes discussed, which I like, would drop the movement to 6, increase the cost to 130-150 (AGAIN, NOTE THAT NEW MADE UP UNITS SHOULD BE OVERCOSTED IN A FAN-MADE LIST) and I think they are still an auto-take for this army. They fill a hole that dwarfs have: the ability to kill stuff.

Hellcannon
does what it does.

Juggernaut
LOVE the way this plays, and Andrew had no problem with it. I would make 1 change to the blunderbuss rules for the riders- no shooting penalties, and drop the armor piercing for them, it just cleans it up and makes them a bit better, as right now it's hard to hit stuff with their shooting. Contrary to complaints about this unit, I think the mechanics and costing are dead on. The mobile shooting contributed to taking out squishy stuff, the breat attack worked well, and combined with the ItP makes it a gamble.

Magic banners
It kind of sucked that the only magic banner I really considered was the war banner. This is a problem with alot of books, but no reason we could not make some of these a bit more attractive.
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Re: Mattbird report 1: Dwarfs of Chaos vs. HE

Postby Guy In Suit » Fri May 22, 2009 10:58 am

I did my best to impersonate a lower-to-mid tier player and in that I was a success!

I agree with Matt that overall the list is very fun and dynamic. I was dissappointed that I faced no magic as I had spent 100 points in magic defense for nothing, but the dwarfs didn't need it, their shooting was very effective. A few thoughts:

Juggernaught: Great unit, shooting is effective but not overly so. I thought it would be an easy 310 points, but it was small enough that it could maneuver between his dwarf blocks and provide those key shots. Very fun unit.

Deamoneaters: Broke as all get out. Do what Matt said above. I would also make the 'impact hits' work on initiative order when you aren't charging. Taking hits to the face when charging with ASF I6 units is slightly ludicrous. A player unfamiliar with the list would immediately get a bad taste in their mouth when they faced this.

The warriors + swivel guns dynamic was interesting. Only change I would consider would be the force the attachments to deploy within 6" of the unit. Matt did this anyway, but I could easily envision this getting abused.

Blunderbusses, while one of the few things that didn't do much against my poor little elves, are definitely very good. They created huge no-mans lands in the middle of the table, and kept my shooting and magic rather busy, allowing the deamon-eaters and centaurs to annihilate the rest of my army. After playing an actual game with them, I don't think the rules are too confusing.
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Re: Mattbird report 1: Dwarfs of Chaos vs. HE

Postby WickerNipple » Fri May 22, 2009 11:33 am

Guy In Suit wrote: I would also make the 'impact hits' work on initiative order when you aren't charging.


Just get rid of the impact hits when they're not charging.
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Re: Mattbird report 1: Dwarfs of Chaos vs. HE

Postby mattbird » Fri May 22, 2009 11:48 am

andy, the model has no attacks, it just does auto hits instead.
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Re: Mattbird report 1: Dwarfs of Chaos vs. HE

Postby Garrett » Mon May 25, 2009 3:52 pm

...so give it normal attacks. I really don't see what the issue with that is, it would nerf it, and coupled with M6, you wouldn't have to jack it to 150 points.
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Re: Mattbird report 1: Dwarfs of Chaos vs. HE

Postby CrazyChaosLord » Tue May 26, 2009 9:11 am

Maybe I am missing something, but this book should definately be toned back. Remember, this is a "fan" book, not an official product. I can imagine some people would be furious to see someone win a GT with it.

My problem with this whole book is that you are trying to recreate the army- something that can't be done in a fair manner. When I tested this book, it nearly tabled Ludwig's Lizardmen list, a list that went 4-0-1 at Colonial.

Seems too OTT, and too much like a "I want to play Chaos Dwarves, but the rules suck, and at the same time, I want to win." mentality.

Daemoneaters need to drop the secondary impact hits and simply have 2 S4 attacks from the Boartaur.

Magic needs to be completely redone, ie, CD sorcerers get no spells of the own lore, just shadow, fire, metal, death. Make it so the High Sorcerer gets +1 to cast Metal.

Chaos Armor is a fine idea for Chaos Dwarf Warriors and makes them quite tough.

Blunderbusses need to be 14 points. The more I think about it, the tougher these guys get.
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Re: Mattbird report 1: Dwarfs of Chaos vs. HE

Postby mattbird » Tue May 26, 2009 9:48 am

You aren't missing anything, and apart from blunderbusses, you are right.

Blunderbusses have too many things they are useless against. Cav, multiwound things, chariots, even skirmishers...
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Re: Mattbird report 1: Dwarfs of Chaos vs. HE

Postby CrazyChaosLord » Tue May 26, 2009 3:22 pm

Sure, Blunderbusses aren't good against multi wound things. But Skirmishers? They slaughtered tons of Skinks. They can literally destroy an entire unit of enemy troopers, and that's with only 10 models in the BB unit!

Matt, you're not a dumbass, and neither am I, but the list doesn't need Blunderbusses to kill cavalry, multiwound models, chariots, etc. That's what it has cheap ass bolt throwers, earthshakers, and death rockets for.

In combination, the blunderbusses are underpriced.
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Re: Mattbird report 1: Dwarfs of Chaos vs. HE

Postby Guy In Suit » Tue May 26, 2009 3:27 pm

It's true. What other Core Infantry choice in the game has S5 shooting? Especially S5 that can hit an entire unit?

Granted they played zero role in our game because I avoided them entirely as S5 hitting my troops would have been a disaster.

I'd prefer toning them down a hair to jacking up the costs, but either way you should err on the side of caution.
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Re: Mattbird report 1: Dwarfs of Chaos vs. HE

Postby CrazyChaosLord » Tue May 26, 2009 4:00 pm

Ansolutely. If alot of this stuff isn't changed, I'll definately lobby to have this not be allowed at GT's coz honestly, it's busted right now.
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