Mattbird report 1: Dwarfs of Chaos vs. HE

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Re: Mattbird report 1: Dwarfs of Chaos vs. HE

Postby Guy In Suit » Tue May 26, 2009 4:22 pm

Bear in mind that Kevin intentionally made the list strong from the get go, as it is always easier during playtesting to tell what is too good rather than whats to weak. Players naturally pick effective units, not innefective ones, and admirable performances stand out too both players more than mediocre ones, etc.

Now we just need to keep testing so things can be toned down in due order.
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Re: Mattbird report 1: Dwarfs of Chaos vs. HE

Postby elrodogg » Tue May 26, 2009 4:23 pm

CrazyChaosLord wrote:Ansolutely. If alot of this stuff isn't changed, I'll definately lobby to have this not be allowed at GT's coz honestly, it's busted right now.


You always start a playtest list strong and tone it down. Having played against Kevin's in his one playtest game so far, he completely agrees that certain things are completely OTT right now and they definitely won't be so in future versions. Relax, the list has 3 more months of playtesting and even then it still has to be submitted to the tournament organizers for their approval for GT use. :lol:

FYI I do support increasing the cost of blunderbusses a pip or so (not because of what they shoot but the fact that they come with heavy armor). However, I think their shooting rules should be as close to RH as possible. What made them really nasty in the last edition was the earthshaker forcing half moves for things in blunderbuss zone so they just end up getting annihilated. The change to earthshakers has already reduced their effectiveness.
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Re: Mattbird report 1: Dwarfs of Chaos vs. HE

Postby mattbird » Tue May 26, 2009 4:54 pm

Brian (CrazyChaos), the list is clearly not ready to go, and I would not support it's release in the current state either. The final version will need approval by many people, and should theoretically piss off nobody. The goal is to make a lower-mid tier army, as you have stated.

re: blunderbusses

I'd rather tone down and up-cost the new things (like daemoneaters, swivel guns, etc.) than fiddle too much with existing Chaos Dwarf units. I agree that in combination with other units, they are better than previous. In theory. In my 2 games, they did nothing except fuck with Andrew's head.

Overall, don't forget that the list has been out, what, 2 weeks?

Compared to GW playtest lists 2 weeks in, we are way ahead of the game.
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Re: Mattbird report 1: Dwarfs of Chaos vs. HE

Postby mattbird » Tue May 26, 2009 4:58 pm

Brian, having said all that, what else would you like to see changed?

My hit list is somewhat short:

magic system- back to normal, choose from fire, metal, death
daemoneaters- nerf them completely
death rocket- perhaps too good, I have to try it.
sneaky gitz- I'd like them back to special

then tidy up some rules here and there, and I think it's close. You obviously want blunderbuss priced higher.

Am I missing something that is overpowered beyond that?
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Re: Mattbird report 1: Dwarfs of Chaos vs. HE

Postby CrazyChaosLord » Wed May 27, 2009 9:52 am

Here's my list:

Magic back to normal, drop the daemonsmith and add level 1-2 sorcerers, move some daemon items to enchanted for bounds.

BB's need at least a 2 point increase to account for S5 shooting.

Daemoneater needs to have secondary hits removed. Give the boartaur 2 attacks.

If sneaky gits go special, they need scouting and skirmish. Give them shortbows, 2 hand weapons, poison, Light armor.
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Re: Mattbird report 1: Dwarfs of Chaos vs. HE

Postby mattbird » Wed May 27, 2009 10:10 am

Brian, if that's your list, we're basically on the same page.

From a top line point of view, we have decided that CDs should not get skirmishers, it would bee too much. We may try Sneaky Gitz with scouting, but honestly, it's OK if there are some suboptimal units. All armies have them.
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Re: Mattbird report 1: Dwarfs of Chaos vs. HE

Postby Dedwrekka » Thu May 28, 2009 5:58 pm

CrazyChaosLord wrote:Here's my list:

Magic back to normal, drop the daemonsmith and add level 1-2 sorcerers, move some daemon items to enchanted for bounds.

Always saw the Demonsmith as a cross between a dwarf engineer and a runesmith anyways. They might make better additions to warmachines, effecting Hellcannon misfires, using their BS for bolt throwers, and adding some extra damage to earth shakers, juggernaughts, and death rockets.
BB's need at least a 2 point increase to account for S5 shooting.

But to get that strength 5 shooting you need 15 of them minimum. I'd agree if I could just buy a unit of ten and get s5 shots, but I have to buy 15, and then any casualties will drop me back to s4 or s3 shooting.
Daemoneater needs to have secondary hits removed. Give the boartaur 2 attacks.

Agreed
If sneaky gits go special, they need scouting and skirmish. Give them shortbows, 2 hand weapons, poison, Light armor.

Don't think they really need either. They'd make pretty good special units as it, just look at Witch Elves and Plague monks, though a point of strength or toughness would help them fit the special role a bit better.
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Re: Mattbird report 1: Dwarfs of Chaos vs. HE

Postby Hashuts Scion » Sun May 31, 2009 7:20 am

Having now played the list a couple of times, I agree (reluctantly) with most of the comments here.

Both my opponent and myself, although we like the Lore of Hashut, feel the magic system as written is broken. This is in part to many facets: the simple +2 dispel dice and the bound spells ala prayers don't fit in at this point. I LIKE the lore and would like to keep it, but change it instead to a regular lore type magic system with all the normal rules. Adding the three suggested lores would be great as well.

I disagree with the daemonsmiths. We both felt they were an added feature that changed the standard fighter or mage type of hero level slot. The daemonweapons are wide in nature and all are good by themselves. Some in combination might be OTT. Making them simple engineers makes it feel too much like a dwarf army then.

By all means, add a lvl 1-2 mage to the hero selection. It would go a long way to increase the magic capability of the army. My only conern is most armies have only 4 hero types and given the choice between DS and Mages, I opt for th DS with an added Dispel dice.

With the sneaky gits being core now, I just don't see the need for Hobgoblins with normal weapons, especially having to take 20. So, either limit the number of sneaky gits or place them back to special (I can't believe I'm saying this), although giving them something else would be interesting (6+ ward save). Giving them +1T would be an alternative option.
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Re: Mattbird report 1: Dwarfs of Chaos vs. HE

Postby mattbird » Sun May 31, 2009 8:31 am

the idea being thrown around for snakey gits is to move them back to special, and give them scouting (but not skirmish)
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Re: Mattbird report 1: Dwarfs of Chaos vs. HE

Postby Renufus » Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:56 pm

mattbird wrote:the idea being thrown around for snakey gits is to move them back to special, and give them scouting (but not skirmish)


This poses the same problem that Dwarf Rangers suffer from - a scouting unit that doesn't skirmish and doesn't have any special movement rules is limited in its uses since it has to be deployed in or behind terrain.
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