Dwarfs of Chaos vs Dark Elves

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Dwarfs of Chaos vs Dark Elves

Postby Renufus » Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:29 pm

I won't go into great detail since I have to get ready for work but I will go through a quick rundown of how the army list worked. All in all, I was extremely happy with the way it played and it was an infinitely more enjoyable time than using the dated RH list. My opponent was also a great sport and only had one complaint about the list, which I'll get to. I made some of my own modifications to the list because I wanted to get some playtesting with these rules and give feedback.

Characters

Slavemaster - GW, Armour of Gaz, Hexacon [119]

Having 4DD allowed me to skip the High Priest and be more conservative with my character choices, plus I know the magic is getting overhauled anyway so I'm going to wait for the changes and then playtest the CD magic phase. This guy was as solid a general as you could ask for in a hero choice and the Hexacon allowed me to stop a brutal Black Horror casting that would have decimated my Warrior unit otherwise.

Great Horn BSB - Amulet of Hashut, GW, HA, Sh [175]

Loved the rule that allowed me to use a unit of BC as core. He joined the Obsidian Guard unit to provide them hatred and was an excellent addition to the army. I didn't get time to try it but I would've also liked to try him with the BC unit since the hatred was a bit of a waste on the OG... The front rank got chopped down in the first round by COK, but I could still see Hatred on those boys being useful if they charge something or get more than the champ attacking back.

Core

20 Chaos Dwarf Warriors - CA+Sh, FC, War Banner, Eruption Gun [350]

-Absolutely brilliant. The Chaos Armour helped immensely and the Eruption Gun was brilliant for tackling his Shades and Dark Riders that were making a beeline for my war machines. I definitely got what I paid for out of this unit.

2x 15 Annihilators [165ea]

We playtested them as working the way Matt suggested in the CD Warrior thread (here) and it not only sped up the shooting phase, it also made them a bit more flexible without being OTT. I love the proposed changes and really hope they make it into V3.

20 Rabble - std [68]

Nice, cheap bodies whose 'bomb' effect was actually quite entertaining when it went off. When they exploded, they took out a few DE Warriors, some Corsairs, some Witches, and the CD Warriors just laughed and shrugged off the hits thanks to their Chaos Armour. If I had to say one thing, it's that they tend to overshadow normal Hobgoblins a bit. Whether this is a problem with the Rabble themselves or with the Hobgoblins is up for debate but I just can't seem to talk myself into trying Hobgoblins when these guys are available.

2x 10 Sneaky Gits [60ea]

We playtested them as a 10+ skirmishing unit and that you cannot have more units than you have CD/Annihilators, and oh boy what a difference! More flexible, more useful, and overall just a great, versatile unit. It was the first time in a long time that my 20 Sneaky Git models were used for something other than capturing table quarters. Obviously my opponent and I had a long discussion about them after the game because as a skirmishing unit in a CD army most of the attention was on how they would do or whether they would overpower the army. We both agreed that the Sneaky Gits were great but not OTT. They gave the army a way to use terrain, defend their war machines, screen expensive units, flank charge, anything you could ask for in a skirmishing unit. They're a bit like Dryads - great value for the points, almost always worth taking a unit or two, but they have their weaknesses as well. Notably, their statline is pretty poor and if they're deployed away from the general they're likely to panic since they're only T3 with no armour and Ld6. I loved them and they actually made the army as a whole a bit more exciting to play since they add a dynamic that the CD have never had before. Just having something that can go through terrain and have a 360 LOS was worth it and I would strongly recommend others try them this way and provide feedback. I loved them and they really stole the show in my mind.

2x5 Wolf Ridaz - spears, mus [76ea]

Fantastic unit now that they're 5+. Like the sneaky gits, extremely versatile, almost unlimited uses, but not OTT because, again, they're just Hobgoblins. I love them and would never leave home without them.

6 Bull Centaurs - HA [126]

Useful as they always were. I loved them and they performed very well for me, but they can also be quite vulnerable to shooting, which is a justified weakness. Wouldn't change a thing.

Special

12 Obsidian Guard - FC, Shadow Standard of Hashut [223]

We tried them as being ITP and Stubborn instead of causing fear, and no shield option available. They were an excellent unit and I was extremely pleased with how they performed. The banner protected them from being blown away by RBT and crossbow fire, and when they hit combat they were a bit vulnerable due to striking last with only T4 and a 4+ save to protect them, but when they hit back they were choppy enough to overcome that. Furthermore, being stubborn allowed me to hold up a unit of COK including his general for most of the game. His general and my BSB duked it out in a challenge but neither one was able to overcome the other. While they still had their weaknesses, they were a very useful unit and definitely something I would use again. The stubborn ability was invaluable combined with the BSB rerolls as they held the COK charge despite losing by 6. I loved 'em.

Death Rocket [80]

Much more useful than the old RH version. It killed a few spearelves and corsairs over the course of the game and made its points back. Overall quite solid.

2 Spear Chukkas [30ea]

Nothing to say here. Solid as always, and managed to take enough wounds off the Hydra to make it second-guess coming any closer to my Blunderbusses and Eruption Gun.

Daemoneater [105]

This is the only thing my opponent pointed at and said needed fixing, and I agree. If it were up to me it would have a regular BC pushing it with M8 and 2S4 attacks, but only do D6+1 impact hits on the charge and no impact hits in later rounds. Should probably also only have a 4+ save and not 3+. If you compare it to an Orc Boar chariot or Chaos Chariot this would actually make the 105 points cost reasonable. I'm pretty sure Matt has said that it's going to be more expensive but in my opinion it just needs to be a lot less hitty in rounds where it doesn't charge and it would be perfect. In my next game I'm going to play it this way and I'll let you know how it does.

Rare

Earthshaker [90]

We playtested it as using the 5" template for the quake effect only. It managed to slow the Hydra down for most of the game and even put a couple wounds on it. Overall it was worth the 90pts but not a game stealer, which is good enough for me.

In the end, I ended up winning by a minor victory. As I said, I was extremely happy with the way the list played. It was flexible, fun, and competitive but still had weaknesses. The Dwarfs are expensive and the Greenies are unreliable but when effectively used together they cover the weaknesses for each other nicely. Like Lizardmen, it's easy for your battleline to stagger itself due to all sorts of different M values so you have to be careful of this. Animosity is still a bugger, but I understand that it's a weakness built into the army so I can live with it. You really have to protect the war machines and shooting units also but again, this is a built-in weakness of the army. All in all, I like where this project is going. Keep up the good work!
Renufus
 
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Re: Dwarfs of Chaos vs Dark Elves

Postby mattbird » Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:25 pm

thanks! very helpful report.

I'm also glad that there seems to be an overall consensus on what needs work at this point.

I'll discuss with Kevin the sneaky git and obsidian guard rules you tried out.

IF SG end up skirmishing, what would be an appropriate point cost? It would have to be high, I think, due to adding yet another ability to the CD army... 10 each?
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Re: Dwarfs of Chaos vs Dark Elves

Postby Renufus » Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:53 pm

mattbird wrote:thanks! very helpful report.

I'm also glad that there seems to be an overall consensus on what needs work at this point.

I'll discuss with Kevin the sneaky git and obsidian guard rules you tried out.

IF SG end up skirmishing, what would be an appropriate point cost? It would have to be high, I think, due to adding yet another ability to the CD army... 10 each?


We played them at their current cost of 6 points but I'll admit it seemed a little cheap for what they could do. A lot of their value came from the fact that they were cheap enough to use as a screen or hold back to protect war machines, but at the same time they have to be limited in some way or the army could quickly become nothing but 60 point skirmishing throwaway units, which is not good. This is why we decided to limit them and wolf riders to the number of warrior/BB units in the army. A better idea would be to limit them to the number of Hobgob units and characters in the army.

Also, adding a new dimension to the army doesn't necessarily mean having to make them more expensive than they're really worth, as being too expensive would undermine a lot of their use. I would say a point cost of around 8 points each and having the number of units limited in some way would keep them both reasonable and useful.
Renufus
 
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Re: Dwarfs of Chaos vs Dark Elves

Postby mattbird » Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:11 pm

well, they'll be special for sure, so that will limit them.
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Re: Dwarfs of Chaos vs Dark Elves

Postby Renufus » Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:52 pm

Another game to report! Different guy using his Lizardmen. I'll try to be a bit more detailed this time. Anyway, my list, which is almost the same as the one I used before with a few tweaks:

Slavemaster - GW, Armour of Gaz, Hexacon [119] (joined the Warriors)
Great Horn BSB - Amulet of Hashut, GW, HA, Sh [175] (joined the Centaurs)
Hobgoblin Big Boss - Wolf, Helm of Az, spear, LA, Sh [83]
25 Warriors - CA, Sh, FC, War Banner, Eruption Gun [350]
6 Bull Centaurs - HA, mus [131]
2x15 Blunderbuss [165ea]
Using the shooting rules proposed by Matt in the CD War thread.
2x5 Wolf Riders - spears, mus [76ea]
2x20 Rabble - std, mus [72ea]
2x10 Sneaky Gits [80ea]
I wanted to playtest them as being skirmishers @8pts apiece and a special choice.
12 Obsidian Guard - Std, Shadow Standard [205]
Again, stubborn instead of fear.
2xSpear Chukka [30ea]
Earthshaker [90]
Again, using the 5" template for the quake.

This list actually looks quite solid and depending on whether the 'modifications' I made to the rules ever see the light of day, could be my regular 2k list. I added the Big Boss to not only help my magic defense a touch, but also protect my war machines. A hero with 3S5 attacks on the charge and an 18" charge range with no animosity to worry about should keep my war machines relatively safe from fast cav, scouts, and flyers that try to get too cute... Assuming I can keep him safe from shooting, that is!

Anyway, I got a copy of my opponent's list, and he's well-known as one of those guys who goes out of his way to beef up every army he makes. I came in expecting as much and he didn't disappoint:

Slann - knows all spells, free PD on every spell he casts, Bane Head, some item that gives him +3 to cast on one spell (took lore of metal)
Priest w/ Engine - extra spell
Priest w/ Engine - some kind of war drum item. I dunno, it never came into play as far as I know
3 units of 10 skirmishing skinks
2 units of 3 terradons
5 Chameleons
16 TG with a banner that gives them -1 to be hit by shooting, -2 if within 12" (he argued that this would affect my annihilators but I disagreed, so we diced for it and it ended up in my favor... Some clarification from Matt or Kev would be much appreciated)

Good thing I added that one extra dispel die! :lol: As you can probably guess, this was not the most exciting game ever unless you like Yahtzee so I'll give you the cliffnotes version.

-He picked my general for his Bane Head, he got punked out by a rule of burning iron on turn 1, irresistible force
-One of the spear chukkas got lucky and skewered one of the engine priests on turn 2 or 3, I forget
-Chaos Armour for the rank n file Dwarfs = GODLY... Unless faced with Spirit of the Forge. They actually survived the game but were looking much worse for wear
-I miss being able to stop stuff from shooting with the Earthshaker. I really do. At least it kept his frog's death star unit slowed down for most of the game
-Wolf Boss was worth his weight in gold. Managed to keep him safe from thunderbolts and he chased off the Chameleons and a unit of Terradons
-Blunderbusses made a mess of his TG before being magicked and blowpiped to death
-Slann being able to cast from priests is crap. All my support units, including the Centaurs, got blown away pretty quickly
-Obsidian Guard put up a valiant effort but were smashed by the 2 ancient stegs and that radius thing that the engine throws out... Brutal
-Sneaky Gitz managed to mess up his skink units. I love them as skirmishers. If I could make one wish to Santa, it would be for them to stay that way.
-One thing I learned is that the Eruption Gun has to roll to hit, I assumed it just did an artillery dice number of hits. Not as useful as I thought initially, but I guess you can't expect that much for 60pts...

I ended up losing by a massacre, no surprises there. I didn't really have much to fight him with. I don't think it was an issue of the CD book being too weak though, it's just the ridiculous over the top nature of his list compared to my more tame army. I just got blown away by all his power dice and shooting and rock dropping and whatever else he had in there.

I'll be having a rematch with him later this week. Hopefully next time goes a bit better for me now that I'm getting more and more familiar with the army.
Renufus
 
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Re: Dwarfs of Chaos vs Dark Elves

Postby Larro » Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:07 am

The Earthshaker continues to disappoint in just about every battle report I've read so far.

Why oh why does this thing not disrupt shooting? Why is it neutered on hampering movement? Is the 5" template really that big a deal to pull out and use? And why is the sole intention to make it some bargain-basement craptastic Warmachine?? Keep it in the "expensive" range of 120-130, and make it good, instead of making it 90 pts. of mediocrity.

- Larry
"Just being born means you've lost to Larro. Or haven't you gotten the memo yet?" - Nidal

"Larry was right. I know he never gets tired of hearing that." - Canterman
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Re: Dwarfs of Chaos vs Dark Elves

Postby mattbird » Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:38 am

Renefus- how did you feel about the revised blunderbuss rules, compared to the current RH ones?
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Re: Dwarfs of Chaos vs Dark Elves

Postby Renufus » Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:14 pm

mattbird wrote:Renefus- how did you feel about the revised blunderbuss rules, compared to the current RH ones?


I like them, much easier to use. They're still pretty weak against chariots and lone characters and such, but that's why we have 30 point bolt throwers.
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