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V3 Chaos Dwarves vs VC, 2250 points

PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 3:52 am
by DarkbloodSkullpulper
Longtime CD player, but I've been wanting to get in a game with the test list for a while now. I had a spur-of-the-moment game today at 2250 with a list I put together in 5 min. vs. a very brutal VC list. Given more time to put it together, I definitely would have worked in some hobgoblins to give more taxtical flexibility, but I wanted to test all of the stuff I took, and ran out of points very fast.

I had:
High Priest w/ Black Gem, Arcane Apparatus, Fire Stones (went in warrior unti)
Daemonsmith w/ Hexacon and Helm of Azgorh (went in death rocket crew)
Daemonsmith w/ Hexacom and Armor of Gazrakh (went in annihilator unit)
Slavemaster BSB w/ Souleater + Talisman of Protection (went in warrior unit)

20 Warriors + shield, full command and Banner of Daemonic Tides, Eruption gun
20 warriors + chaos armor + shield, full command and Stone Totem (oops, 2 magic banners) Eruption gun
20 Annihiliators w/ full command
Daemoneater
Death Rocket
5 Bull Centaurs +shield + chaos armor + great weapon, w/ standard
Earthshaker
3 Obsidian Golems

The enemy had a Vampire Lord and 2 thralls plus wightlord BSB w/ regen banner. 9 power dice, plus periapt, 2 bound spells, 2 corpse carts, so generally 14 power dice worth of stuff. Helm to use thrall vamp WS on other units. The VC lord had red fury and eternal hatred, of course.
Core was 2 ghoul units and a zombie unit. Also had Varghulf, 25 man grave guard unit, 2 units of fell bats, 2 units of dire wolves.

Set up: I had one hill right in the center, and so dropped the Chaos armor dwarf infantry there for my first deployment, then some blunderbusses. After faking me out with a center deployment, the rest of the undead all went onto a single flank, which is where the rest of my army ended up as well, with the exception of the Bull centaurs who I figured to have a good chance to be hit a flank charge if I kept them in the middle. Once I was done deploying, a bat unit, varghulf, and dire wolf unit all went onto the completely uncontested flank.

Turn 1, move the chaos armor dwarves and annihilators to try to get closer to the action, move up regular warriors, golems, and daemoneater up just a bit. Bull centaurs hang back to see what happens with the distant flank. Earthshaker slowed zombies a bit, death rocket killed a half-dozen ghouls, Eruptioon guns were out of range. Magic saw a couple of magic missiles go off, killing a half dozen zombies, and a lost point of I on the High Priest. Opponant starts to grumble abot how many power dice equivalents I have (!). Undead turn, everything advances, magic brings back everything he lost plus some.

Turn 2, hang back a bit with chaos armor dwarves, again worried about that flank. Bull Centaurs and annihilators advance.
Dwarf warriors and golemim edge up a bit more from grave guard. I send the daemoneater into a ghoul unit pretty well away from the main VC thrust. My magic phase, I roll a 1 for the High Priest, then a 1 for a daemonsmith, then a 1 for the other daemonsmith, then a 1 for the High Priest again. Each caster now has 1 point of I left. Earthshaker slows Grave Guard, Eruption guns get a few models, Death rocket gets a few ghouls. VC phase, again, all losses are recovered, plus some extra ghouls and zombies are added. Two Van Hels are attempted to get grave guard into daemoneater, and both hexacons are used. ASF from both corpse cards go off. Bats now have charge range to the Earthshaker, varghulf and dire wolves are threatening the rear of the BC, so chaos warrior dwarves need to hang around that area. Some bats charge the death rocket with daemonsmith and tie them up for a turn.

Turn 3: Double charge with golemim into engaged ghouls and the grave guard unit - taking a gamble here because the VC lord will not be in this combat, and if I can get a magical move of warriors with CD and BSB, then there's perfect position for the HP to use the gem on the lord - looks like a no-lose proposition because all three casters will get a chance. The HP Hails Hatshut, then on the first try at the magical move, the daemonsmith with the DR crew gets the spell off, and move puts me 1" short. The HP tries the magical move, rolls a 1 and is dead. Yup 4 for 6 on the miscast. My plan is kinda hosed now, but I decide to stick with it and see if I get lucky. Last daemonsmith gets the magical move to work. Shooting gives a misfire with death rocket, slowed zombies from Eathshaker, one Eruption gun misfires, and the other one finally does something and blasts a corpse cart to smithereens. Combat is horrible. VC lord does 7 kills, and my BSB is killed outright from a grave guard champion who has ASF. Golems do 4 wounds on the charge with are not regenerated. I lose combat by 4, so warriors autobreak and so does daemoneater. Golems stay on a 5, so hooray for the Ld boost. Annihilators kill a bunch of zombies.
VC raise back everything and boost zombies up to 41 models. Staff of Damnation lets a bunch of free attacks come in and kill two golemim. Combat later finishes off the last one. Book of Arkhan lets zombies charge annihilators - 41 shots means 17 dead zombies. Combat goes well, but some zombies remain alive. Bats charge earthshaker, which holds.

Turn 4: Rally warriors and daemoneater. Get BC set for a flank on grave guard unit. Chaos armor dwarves have realized that they are too slow to affect battle, and so turn towards bats engaged w/ earthshaker. Daemonsmith with Death Rocket gets stoned from an attempt at magical movement. Annihilators kick zombie ass. VC advance, using corpse cart as redirector to keep BC from charging the flank. VC have a very poor casting phase for once, bringing back only a few models.

Turn 5: Chaos armor warriors charge bats, regular warriors and daemoneater charge ghouls. BC faila charge through fear, i think. Last daemonsmith tries magic movement on BC again, and gets stoned. Annihilators open fire on grave guard, killing 7 but only 3 stay dead. Death rocket blows up, and Eruption gun misfires. Bats die, chaos armor warriors overrun off board. Warriors and daemoneater combine to kill 8 or 9 ghouls, wiping them completely out through combat res. VC do a charge with dire wolves into earthshaker, varghulf into flank of BC. Grave Guard Van Hels at Annihilators, again lots of grave guard are shot, but they keep regenerating. Chaos armor saves a couple of the BC, so only 2 die to give a drawn combat. Vampire lord scores 8 kills on Annihilators by himself, they are crushed. At this point I call the game.

Take aways:
My list suffered gretly because I was too impatient to add in the hobos and cheap stuff. Slowness really hampered my ability to react around the board, especially when VC had 3 chances for magical movement each turn. Even though hobos are probably overcosted at 4 points per, they really are needed in the CD list as cheap fodder.

I don't think I got a good test of the magic phase because of my crap rolling. I still think I'd rather see a LD test to "master a bound daemon" or something, rather than having a 1 in 6 chance of miscast each time. The addition of the movement spell to the list got me very excited, and means I'll want at least a deamonsmith in every list just for the chance to get that off. Has anyone ever used the Doomroar spell? I can think of very few instances when I'd ever want to, such as if a unit failed to rally on my turn and was parked in front of a fairly fast enemy, but it's going to be a very rare event.

I'd take the Helm of Azgorh every game. Are Hexacons really only 80% as effective as a dispel scroll? I'd say they are 99.5% as effective as a D. scroll, and have the added bonus of not being arcane items. Seems silly to not have them also be 25 points. Arcane Apparatus is an absolute must for any High Priest under the current rule set, I think. Tough decisions on what magic items to take - unlike pretty much every GW book, I would consider using almost all of the magic items in this list.

The change to daemonsmiths was very nice, meaning that they are a viable option in a non-magical list. I have an affection for the one-trick nature of the first version, big nasty weapon with a bound spell, but generally gimmicky rather than reliable.. they now seem to have a broader set of possibilities. I think you've hit a balanced and legitimate choice between slavemater or daemonsmith.

Should all characters get chaos armor standard as part of their cost? It really makes the magical armors less tempting as options when you can start out with a 3+ save before ever hitting the magic allowance. Excellent call to have the High priest have chaos armor as an option, as this could in theory lead me to dusting off the Lammasu and seeing what i can do with a mobile HP.

Ther was no call to ever use the "normal" fire mode for the blunderbusses, as it was just pointless at any time in the game to ever think about it. At one point, I could have taken some shots against a corpse cart, since it was the only viable target, but i was more useful to march instead of wasting a few shots in that direction. I do like that the Concentrated Fire rule being so much easier to deal with - I spent the first half of the game setting up kill boxes with a 7 man frontage before I realized that there was no longer any need to worry about all that fiddly, finessed blunderbuss movement I was used to. There should be penalties under the v3 blunderbuss rules for shooting at skirmishers or chargers or enemies in cover, right? That sucks pretty hard. The enemies in cover make sense, but not the rest. I only used the 4+ to hit rule in my game, as making it a 5+ for stand and shoot hurts a lot. Annihilators die in droves in hth anyway, and they need all the help they can get.

I liked having fully ranked CD warriors, but dang those guys get expensive for a single s3 attack each. I wanted a chance to run the chaos armor vs. normal, but didn't get a comparison because they are so slow. Hard to believe that a banner giving 1" extra movement is worth 45 points, but yes, it most certainly is. My opponent could not believe the stats on the Eruption guns for their point cost and thought I must be mistaken. With BS 3 and range of 24, most every turn I was hitting on 5's. That averages to 2 s4 hits each turn. Aside from 1 round of 10 shots at close range, neither eruption gun did anything.

The daemoneater was very nice and seemed to have a close-to-fair point cost. ITP or causing fear would have been very very nice - I didn't like having to make a fear test to charge or autobreaking from fear causers.

The Doom rocket has great mechanics and I think it's well costed; unfortunately, at s3 it's generally not going to kill all that much and the CD special slots are crowded with better options.

Bull centaurs with chaos armor and shield can have a 2+ save and 2 s4 attacks or a 4+ and 2 s6 attacks and they feel right at 27 points. It's also very cool to have the cheaper option of shields only for 19 points, and I would happily take two or three units with a Bull Centaur lord to make them core.

Under the v1 earthshaker rules, I would have only slowed one unit for 1 turn, shooting 4 times in the game. Instead, I slowed 4 units with those same shots. Under the Ravening Hordes rules, there would likely have been between 10-15 units worth of slowing. Meh, better than it was, and I'll probably take it again because of the limited competition for rare slots. Make it special and I'll never take it. I hate, hte, hate that it no longer affects flyers, as those are the easiest units to use to take out the Earthshaker crew. By fluff and physics, it should affect flyers more than infantry. Flyers should be limited to half ground move or completely unable to move if they are in the Earthshaker radius, especially since the shaking effect is still quite neutered. Face it, we've gone from an average 7" radius effect to a 2.5" radius effect. Better than the 1.5" radius, but still generally not going to slow multiple units.

The change to WS4 and Ld9 for the golems was huge. Big guys with T5 is quite nice, but something is missing for those points. I wish they had a 3+ save instead of 4+, or had MV6, or were stubborn or ITP or something else to give them just a little more edge. I'm not sold on them, and doubt I'd use them for more than guarding a flank or a war machine battery in future games.

All in all, the list feels very close to being ready, and look forward to trying it again.

Re: V3 Chaos Dwarves vs VC, 2250 points

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:42 pm
by mattbird
thanks!

There should be penalties under the v3 blunderbuss rules for shooting at skirmishers or chargers or enemies in cover, right? That sucks pretty hard. The enemies in cover make sense, but not the rest. I only used the 4+ to hit rule in my game, as making it a 5+ for stand and shoot hurts a lot.


No penalties or bonuses at all for firing with the new blunderbuss rules, sorry that wasn't clear. We need to shore up the wording...

Re: V3 Chaos Dwarves vs VC, 2250 points

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:58 pm
by Larro
DarkbloodSkullpulper wrote:The change to WS4 and Ld9 for the golems was huge. Big guys with T5 is quite nice, but something is missing for those points. I wish they had a 3+ save instead of 4+, or had MV6, or were stubborn or ITP or something else to give them just a little more edge. I'm not sold on them, and doubt I'd use them for more than guarding a flank or a war machine battery in future games.


This is what I've been saying for weeks now. Either a 3+ Save and a reduction to 60 pts., or a larger reduction and keep them as-is. They're just too expensive and not durable enough to warrant taking them over say, Bull Centaurs w/ Chaos Armor and GWs, which also move much faster.

- Larry

Re: V3 Chaos Dwarves vs VC, 2250 points

PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:01 am
by Hashuts Scion
Also, please note that it is confirmed that DS no longer has to roll to see if they lose a point of I. They don't. That means DS are now very competitive with Slavemasters.