v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby DarkbloodSkullpulper » Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:42 am

Ronen Warrior wrote:+1

4pt LA+Sh Hoggobbos and 10+ archers (6pts is fine)


I would be likely to use them at those point costs. I could even see myself taking a banner in a hobo 25+ infantry unit.
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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby Aves » Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:51 pm

Actually mathematically speaking difference between Ld6 and Ld7 is HUGE. On 2D6 roll 50% of all results is 7, so rolling 7 or less is very likely, (50% + percentage chance for 6,5,4,3,2) rolling 6 or less is around 30%.

So unless u look precisely at the LD differences u might think that 4pts is overpriced, but in this 4pts there is cost of their relative usefullness, in army with very strong artilerry and elite infantry/calvary (aka Bull Centaurs) having too many cheap units would be too usefull. So potential benefits meatchield units can bring to you are increasing the cost.
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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby Guy In Suit » Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:05 pm

Aves wrote:Actually mathematically speaking difference between Ld6 and Ld7 is HUGE. On 2D6 roll 50% of all results is 7, so rolling 7 or less is very likely, (50% + percentage chance for 6,5,4,3,2) rolling 6 or less is around 30%.

So unless u look precisely at the LD differences u might think that 4pts is overpriced, but in this 4pts there is cost of their relative usefullness, in army with very strong artilerry and elite infantry/calvary (aka Bull Centaurs) having too many cheap units would be too usefull. So potential benefits meatchield units can bring to you are increasing the cost.



:shock: There is a 1/6 chance of rolling a natural '7' on a break check. Rolling a 7 or less has a 58.3 % chance... You are correct, that 6 is significantly worse, but it is still a 41.7 % chance.
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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby Renufus » Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:50 pm

6pt archers would still be a bit on the expensive side for me even if they were 10+. I'd make them 5pts and remove the mandatory light armour that nobody wants. 5pt Hobbo Archers and 4pt LA+Sh boyz are certainly not broken or abusive in RH, it's only the 2 point speedbump version that needed to be ditched. Making the whole lot of them more expensive than in RH is just re-inventing the wheel and making it a square.
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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby Aves » Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:06 am

There is a 1/6 chance of rolling a natural '7' on a break check. Rolling a 7 or less has a 58.3 % chance... You are correct, that 6 is significantly worse, but it is still a 41.7 % chance.


Yes, indeed, i ment to write thats 7 or less is around 50%, but english words messed it up :D
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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby KevinC » Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:46 am

Charge more for the Ld10 character or the banner if you have to, but if you don't have these things in your army you're just charging players extra points for nothing.


-----------It's not just these elements though. Chaos Dwarfs have: Dwarf warriors with Chaos armour, a great selection of Warmachines, sorcery, fast cav, M8 medium cav Dwarfs (bulls), chariots, and throw away slaves (Hobs and Rabble). They have a wide variety of choices, especially compared to regular Dwarfs.

That being said, they have two kinds of slave units, both can be useful. Does this mean Chaos Dwarfs must have the best choice of cheap troops too? Hobgoblins are poor warriors - they are poor fighters, treacherous and cowardly. One way this can be represented is by having them cost an extra point.

Look, I know tournament players always want every unit to be completely optimized and worth every point. But that is not what Warhammer is about. Units have draw backs, some are not as good as others, but that is where you as the player come in, you use troops in an effective way with a sound tactics, and make your toy soldiers do well despite their drawbacks.

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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby Renufus » Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:35 pm

I don't understand your logic here, it's like you're keeping them more expensive than they need to be just out of spite now. Why are you so reluctant to change this unit despite the flood of people telling you they need to be cheaper? A one point break for this one unit (which really isn't a point break at all, rather making shields free and mandatory) is not going to make the army any more powerful, it's just going to make the choice of Rabble vs Hobgoblins a little less of a no-brainer.

What if we come up with some kind of compromise and keep the cost the same but give them Worthless Maggots? That way they're not as good as Rabble at being a cheap 20-man roadblock but a unit of 25 with shields and FC would be a worthwhile unit to take.
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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby KevinC » Mon Jun 22, 2009 3:05 pm

Renufus,

I'm certainly not doing anything out of spite. I strongly feel the Hobgoblins are fine how they are. I am considering what is being said however.

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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby Larro » Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:14 pm

Well, I agree with Renefus 100%. Right now, Hobgoblins are overpriced, Bows are also overpriced, and simply saying "it's not all about competitiveness" is a total cop-out answer. Right now, for the 2 pts. less per model, Rabble + Worthless Banner is significantly better than 5 pt. light armor/sh Hobgobbos. 1 less point makes this a debate.

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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby Guy In Suit » Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:34 pm

Rabble shouldn't get worthless banners, or light armour. :ig:
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