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CD v3 vs. Dark elves

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:05 pm
by Zhorn
Chaos Dwarfs vs. Dark Elves 2250 points.

I did a similar list to the last bat rep i posted here for better comparison.

CD list

High priest, apparatus, black gem
demon smith, magical blunderbuss
demon smith, hexagon
Bull BSB, amulet of hashut

20 warriors, ca, sh, fc, totem
1 eruption gun
15 blunderbuss
15 blunderbuss
5 wolfriders, m, spear, bow
5 wolfriders, m, spear, bow
20 rabble
20 rabble

6 bulls, fc, ca, shield
2 boltthrowers

3 golems
1 earthshaker

DE list

Lord, armor kit, cledors bane, regeneration, strength potion, horse
BSB, +1d3 CR on charge, lance, chariot
Sorceress, +1PD
Sorceress, dagger, scroll

20 Warriors, shield, fc
10 Rxb, shield
10 Rxb, shield
5 Dark riders, m
5 Dark riders, m
5 Harpies

6 Knights, fc, cold blood banner
16 black guard, fc, ASF
6 shades, gw

1 Hydra

From the getgo i thought that the CD list was probably stronger than the (rather tame compared to their possibilities) DE list.

The DE played with a strong center with guard w/ PD sorc, knights w/ general, BSB chariot and hydra all covering each other and advancing on the CD's "light flank". Both Rxb were held back the entire game, holding the different table quarters via hill and building. Dark riders went far left and far right flank, one supported by the shades in a handy midtable forest on the flank. The warriors with dagger sorc covered the opposing flank (together with one DR unit). One sorc had chillwind and soulstealer, the other doombolt and soulstealer.

CDs fielded a strong infantry combat line somewhat shifted for the weaker DE flank (opposing the sorc dagger unit, the chariot and the centrally deployed knights but away from guard and hydra). BBs w/ demon smiths on the flanks of the line, then rabble and centrally the warriors w/ priest. On the flank went bulls and golems w/ BSB and some wolves for cover.

---------------------------- RXB----------------------------------------------------RXB
DR ---- warriors-harpies - BSB chariot - general's knights - guard - hydra-- ---- DR


---BB ---rabble - warriors - rabble - shaker - BB --- BSB golems - ---------bolter
Wolves - bolter-----------gun------------------------------bull centaurs -- wolves

1. turn
Dark elves start, general's unit goes stupid, so a more cautious advance. In the magic phase the CD "scroll" goes away (and i learned why the hell the hexagon is cheaper than a DS - yay! for unlimited casting dice dark elves!) but the DE magic does little harm due to poor dice rolling for # hits and wounding.

Chaos dwarfs botch 2 animosity rolls (no harm done) and sigh in relief for the non-advancing heavy hitters of the DEs. The right flank unfolds with a "strong" advance of the golems (yay! for 5" movement!). Left flank wolves set up to delay dark riders. In the magic phase i experiment a bit and come to the conclusion that +2 casting value would be highly valuable against such a weak magic defense. The high priest annihilates the harpies. Shooting sees the first highlight: a direct hit of the earthshaker into the guard unit, halving it's numbers and further stalling the DE advance.

2. turn
Dark elves general's unit goes stupid.... (envision your best gaming partner going pale, the red, then pale again). The dark riders charge the golems to make way for the hydra behind them to charge the bull centaurs who flee the charge. the rest of the DE units shuffle forward (failing stupidity on a 10 two times in a row is a pain). Magic chillwinds the blunderbusses near the bulls and golems and soulsteals the wolves on the left flank (one wolf remaining, not panicking and becoming useful for the rest of the battle). Shades and Rxb shoot the chillwinded blunderbussers, panic check is successfully made. Combat sees the hatred driven golems make short work of the DR, there is noone left to flee (which would have saved the dark elf battle line).

CDs capitalize on their early victory and golem-charge the charge-failed hydra (which flees) and end up in the guards flank. Animosity is a non-issue and bulls rally. Right flank wolves go to left flank. Infantry advances slowly. I start to get the hang on the magic. Earthquake left and right and center ( it's brutal - i had 4 slowing effects to play around with). In close combat the guard stands true to it's name and butchers one golem (with 4 attacks!) and while loosing substantial numbers holds the line.

3. turn
Dark elves general's unit goes stupid.... (how's that for bad dice rolling?). In a desperate attempt to save the game the DE BSB charges the chaos armor powered warrior unit frontally. Hydra rallies. RXBs advance to support the thinning battle line (too little, too late i might say). left flank dark riders make an attempt to flank the CD battle line. Magic is rather uneventful (chillwind on BBs, soulstealer fails). Shooting sees the right flank blunderbusses reduced to 3 models. Combat sees more dead black guard. The dark elf hero on chariot does the heroic thing and beats the chaos dwarf warrior unit containing the high priest! A lucky ("6") break test saves the day for the chaos dwarfs. Damn, i really thought that i would win this one! Cheesy dark elf magic items!

Chaos Dwarfs "go for it". Rabble declares flank charge on BSB chariot and fail their fear test. The wolf unit and the lonely wolf rider both block the remaining dark riders. Blunderbusses and other rabble advance on the DE warrior unit. Bull centaurs go directly in front of the stupid dark elf knights (i could not charge due to the demon smith from the withered down blunderbuss unit - bad play on my part). Magic sees the opposite of earthquaking - MOVE! The bull centaurs magically charge the DE knights. Shooting sees the first blunderbuss volley into the dagger sorc unit - 9 dead. The earthshaker kills the 2 remaining blunderbussers... Close combat: The BSB wounds the high priest and holds. The golems go into overdrive, killing all black guard and pursuiting the fleeing mage into the cold one knight's flank! The following mayhem is not pretty....

The rest was pretty much mop up.

Thoughts to follow.

Re: CD v3 vs. Dark elves

PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:04 am
by Border Reiver
JUst one thing - your Daemonsmith is not allowed to carry the Hailfire Gun as he already has a magic weapon in his Daemonblade.

Did you note any CD units that seem overpowered for their points, underpowered?

Re: CD v3 vs. Dark elves

PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:52 am
by Zhorn
I read the discussion about demonsmiths that way, that they are allowed to take a magic weapon, too. My bad. In the game it didn't matter since the DS did not shoot once (chillwind and short legs do that for you).

On the topic of over/underpowered units:

I think the movement/anti-movement effects are too hard. While my opponent was seriously crippled by psychology (both, the player and the troops :D ) all i casted was anti-movement and movement spells. The whole feel was more khemri than chaos dwarfy.

The large unit of chaos armour powered warriors was a dissapointment. I used them to great effect in other games in small units of 10 (w/ gun) but a unit of 20 is - IMO - not really worth it. They are like ironbreakers - good in theory, not so on the table. While this is absolutely ok because they are a core choice after all i really miss an anvil like troop type in the list (which should be the immortals). A single chariot did nearly break this unit and if stupidity would have went the "statistical way" i would have been in a no-win situation (due to animosity ridden rabble units). You cannot really power this unit up (with banners, eg.) to do something meaningful. Either the opponent has the tools to destroy them front-on or he will just ignore them.

Eruption guns err on the expensive side of things but i will not complain. They are still an addition to the shooting departement.

The new rules are certainly an improvement. While i like the new rules from a gaming POV (easier, more streamlined and in touch with other missle units) they are still a very specialised troop type which condemns opposing infantry units (an already endangered troop type) but are near worthless against the multitude of hard hitters out there. As written elsewhere i still propose a strength of 2-4 (AP) and hitting for unit strength instead of models. That way this unit would be less hard against infantry but a lot more effective vs. other troops.

Expensive. (To elaborate: 2 units will buy an upgraded bull centaur unit)

Even more expensive and my reason to exclude them from the list.

Bull centaurs:
I felt a lot more confident with these while wearing chaos armour and i think they are a good and balanced choice. But, see my first paragraph: Movement/anti-movement spells plus 3 or even 4 bull units will be a reason to bitch and moan for most opponents.

Did not use it this time as i see no reason to ever include one over a unit of bull centaurs at the current rules/points cost.

Ok-ish. Without the hating BSB they are a bit on the expensive side but since it is possible to give them hatred they seem ok. Upgrades are - IMO - way too expensive. A gun that cannot shoot/hit most of the time, a second gun that only really works on a dragon/flyer and a rather weak spell (weak because it is a missle spell which will not work in HtH).

I like it. Not so un-fun like the RH earthshaker but still useful. Again, 5 or even 6 earthshaking effects per round will drain the fun out of the game.

The magic users:
Great concept but not nearly there. Reducing the movement/anti-movement effects is serioulsy needed. On the other hand, other aspects of the lore should be serioulsy improved.

On the downtuning: Earthquake only castable by the HP but may be cast twice (as all spells cast by the HP could do with). Magma tide cast by the demonsmiths only on self/own unit.
This would limit the number of (much needed, IMO) anti-movement effects drastically. While i think the effect is needed i think it is overdone atm. Same with movement spells: propelling a unit of M3 chaos dwarfs 6" is ok - propelling a unit of bull centaurs half the battle field away 3 or 4 times is not.

As said, the other spells are very weak (especially in comparison to these 2 game winning spells). Doomroar should be battlefield wide and/or have a secondary effect (the much needed anvil effect for example). Flaming Fists should be like ogre spells (remaining in play but still able to cast other spells, in addition to work with demonsmith's inbuild magic weapon). The power-up spell should be altered altogether (good suggestions were made on this board, eg. restore 1 point of initiative AND/OR 1 wound, possible minor other effect like power-up by 1 point).

As is the magic phase does not feel very demonengineer-like but more khemri-like. I do not approve! ;)

The magic items:
Expensive and very limited in effect. While searching for defensive measures for the combat-oriented HP (with apparatus and possibly fists) i did not find anything nice without massive points investment. All the armours are overcosted by at least 10 points since the CD characters come with chaos armour anyways and the hobgoblin characters are very weak to begin with. It is a bit sad when the best defensive item is a talisman and not an armour. Of course i do not want a second pendant of kaleth in the game but when weapons and armour are not chosen by CHAOSDWARFS something is wrong (again, IMO). In addition, any improvement on the weapons/armour front might make a slavemaster or lord more appealing. Same with magic defense measures: IMO these are so expensive that the high priest approach is favoured by the current rules.

All in all i really enjoyed doing a bat rep battle with the new rules - sadly, the game was won and lost by the dice (at least that's not my responsibility :P ).

Another idea for the earthquake spell: Give it an additional 1d6 strength 3 hits (non-flaming) or some other weak damaging effect (1d6 strength 2 ignore armour; 1d3 strength 4, etc) and make the antimovement effect only work when cast by the HP. That way the demonsmiths would gain another damaging effect which is not tied to fire (hello dragon armour).

Re: CD v3 vs. Dark elves

PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:15 am
by mattbird
thanks! which blunderbuss trial rules were you using?

Re: CD v3 vs. Dark elves

PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:44 am
by Zhorn
mattbird wrote:thanks! which blunderbuss trial rules were you using?

As written in the v3 book. ;)

Strength 3 (AP), normal targeting restrictions (no more "template"), volley at strength 3-5 if complete front row is in range AND able to see/shoot ("gap shooting" is just... horrible).

More elaboration: I fired a single volley with my two units the whole game which was also the only time i ever shot with the unit(s). But the radius of destruction did help to keep my opponent's units in check as he couldn't advance on the flanks the way he wanted with his infantry and other light units (shades, harpies, dark riders to some extent).

After the game we came up with some interesting scenarios combining blunderbussers with the movement spell...