2250 v3 CD vs. O&G

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Re: 2250 v3 CD vs. O&G

Postby mattbird » Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:59 am

This issue is the primary reason V4 is being held up, FYI. We are trying to figure out whether to keep the unique magic phase and drop Daemonic Engines rules, OR go back to dice and keep the Daemonic Engine rules. The general feeling is that it's one or the other, but keeping both is too much in the special rules dept.
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Re: 2250 v3 CD vs. O&G

Postby Border Reiver » Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:48 pm

Please keep the "Prayers of Hashut" magic system. After three versions, I think that the magic system was ironed out, some spell effects needed a little tweak, but generally the magic phase felt right. It could simply be a function of the group that I play with, but none of my opponents felt that the magic phase was OTT or broken.

I'm not sure what the Daemonic engines rules are as I didn't see the v4 rules that were up briefly, but I am presuming that they were for the Daemoneater/Kollosus.
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Re: 2250 v3 CD vs. O&G

Postby Larro » Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:56 pm

They were for your War Machines. Essentially, all the War Machines outside of Bolt Throwers became S4 T5 Fear-causing Demone Engines which rampaged like the Hellcannon.

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Re: 2250 v3 CD vs. O&G

Postby mattbird » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:08 pm

Border Reiver wrote:Please keep the "Prayers of Hashut" magic system. After three versions, I think that the magic system was ironed out, some spell effects needed a little tweak, but generally the magic phase felt right. It could simply be a function of the group that I play with, but none of my opponents felt that the magic phase was OTT or broken.



I thought V3 was balanced as well. Others still thought it was too powerful...

I was/am still on the fence about it anyway. I guess the question is, should Dwarfs of Chaos be characterized as "The army with that weird magic phase" or "The army with those crazy daemonic war machines" ?
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Re: 2250 v3 CD vs. O&G

Postby allanmcnab » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:12 pm

[rant]I'm glad Ronen wrote it out I was going to but got caught up in work. Really now what army doesn't have special rules. Every army has approx 1227183675451267173845623 magic items that are distinct from other races. People have to learn the rules of each of these if they want to be competitive . Is a 12" kill box that much more difficult than a 12" diameter circle for the screaming sword effect. Is a demon sword that comes with a character and causes fear that much different than a magic item that confers the ability?




Having been to the east coast GT's I realize that most of us are simpletons (especially birdoff, excellent painter though.) But my 13 year old understands the killbox when I play him, and he gets confused by the 40k rules sometimes.

Please, we are all big boys here, most of us will understand a rule after the first time getting beaten with it. If GW comes out with a new book there is always a lag before people figure out how it works in relation to other armies, and this one will be no different. Who are we protecting by dumbing down the book.

Jesus if you don't like rules, don't play games[/rant]

Mind you this rant has no bearing on whether the various aspects are balanced or not. I believe there is still a little tweaking to be done with that.
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Re: 2250 v3 CD vs. O&G

Postby Larro » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:20 pm

mattbird wrote:I was/am still on the fence about it anyway. I guess the question is, should Dwarfs of Chaos be characterized as "The army with that weird magic phase" or "The army with those crazy daemonic war machines" ?


One vote for the latter, please. I just think it ends up conveying the "message" you want to send re: CDs better than the Demonsmith bound phase which doesn't really feel like anything Demonic - it just feels like a bound spell/phase.

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Re: 2250 v3 CD vs. O&G

Postby Renufus » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:22 pm

mattbird wrote:
Border Reiver wrote:Please keep the "Prayers of Hashut" magic system. After three versions, I think that the magic system was ironed out, some spell effects needed a little tweak, but generally the magic phase felt right. It could simply be a function of the group that I play with, but none of my opponents felt that the magic phase was OTT or broken.



I thought V3 was balanced as well. Others still thought it was too powerful...

I was/am still on the fence about it anyway. I guess the question is, should Dwarfs of Chaos be characterized as "The army with that weird magic phase" or "The army with those crazy daemonic war machines" ?


Well, if the 'changes' (read:massive nerfs) to the bound magic phase that were in V4 aren't going to change then I don't see a reason to bother with either one.

Is it really so taboo to have normal war machines and a normal magic phase like everyone else?
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Re: 2250 v3 CD vs. O&G

Postby mattbird » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:24 pm

Allan-
I think we were fine until the daemon engine rules were added on top of everything else. Not that it was too complex necessarily, but it just seemed like every unit at that point had a load of special rules. It just felt too much like a fan list....
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Re: 2250 v3 CD vs. O&G

Postby mattbird » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:26 pm

Renufus wrote:
mattbird wrote:
Border Reiver wrote:Please keep the "Prayers of Hashut" magic system. After three versions, I think that the magic system was ironed out, some spell effects needed a little tweak, but generally the magic phase felt right. It could simply be a function of the group that I play with, but none of my opponents felt that the magic phase was OTT or broken.



I thought V3 was balanced as well. Others still thought it was too powerful...

I was/am still on the fence about it anyway. I guess the question is, should Dwarfs of Chaos be characterized as "The army with that weird magic phase" or "The army with those crazy daemonic war machines" ?


Well, if the 'changes' (read:massive nerfs) to the bound magic phase that were in V4 aren't going to change then I don't see a reason to bother with either one.

Is it really so taboo to have normal war machines and a normal magic phase like everyone else?


The V4 magic nerf was the other reason we pulled down V4; it was too extreme. If we keep on with the bound magic thing, it will be much closer to the V3 version.
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Re: 2250 v3 CD vs. O&G

Postby Hashuts Scion » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:28 pm

No one in my area thought the magic phase was OTT. The Kolossus, being what it is, with unit strength so high was the only problem.

As far as the daemonic engines are concerned, the hellcannon is part of the WoC. Those who play GT must know about it or suffer from ignorance. I might be offended if it was suddenly sprung upon me, but it isn't. If each warmachine had less effect down to the eruption guns, then it wouldn't be hard to explain it all. The RH list has been explained how many times?

So, if it was up to me, I would want both. If I had to choose, then the daemonic war machines are definately unique and I think adds a level of tactical planning. If the magic went poof, would the Hashut list also go? That would be sad.

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