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Re: 2250 v3 CD vs. O&G

PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:27 pm
by elrodogg
The dwarf/orc comparison was just an example of identical warmachines and having different costs (dwarf cannons are slightly undercosted because they tend to take the 25pt reroll rune).

Cost also depends on the stats of the warmachine itself. Number of attacks, ws, strength, blah blah blah.

Re: 2250 v3 CD vs. O&G

PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:57 pm
by DarkbloodSkullpulper
The rampaging itself is a very big detriment; at Ld 9, that's a 1 in 6 chance you don't shoot, and if you're near a board edge, that's an additional 50% chance of not shooting in the following turn. That's before ever rolling artillery dice. Congratulations: your warmachine is twice as likely to misfire as any other warmachine.

If they machines are not unbreakable or stubborn then they are toast any time they hit an enemy unless that enemy is of exceptionally wispy stature. If the v4 death rocket charged a min. unit of wolf riders, the death rocket will lose that combat most of the time. That's a serious detriment. So if there are enemy nearby, a rampage causes a significant chance of taking yourself out completely by charging into a losing combat.

Why should a Hellcannon be so much better at rampaging than a Earthshaker, Death Rocket, or Eruption Gun? Only Hellcannons are unbreakable (per v4 rules) so I guess the rest are just not really very good at being daemonic? Honestly, the daemonic engines rule should not even be considered without having the machines be better than useless in combat. The daemonic engine rule as presented in v4 is a complete and total nerf and should result in all warmachines becoming half-price. The Hellcannon has an additional strategic option because you are allowed to charge with it, and it can actually work out pretty well with limited downside.
The daemonic engine rule in v4 has no upside for the other warmachines, except that :
a)they are more likely to be able to survive a charge by very wimpy attackers like furies or harpies, and
b) they cause fear, which coul cause some enemies to fail a charge on occasion.
c) That's it, no other benefit. Just a whole lot of detriment.

Re: 2250 v3 CD vs. O&G

PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:35 pm
by Matt
DarkbloodSkullpulper wrote:The rampaging itself is a very big detriment; at Ld 9, that's a 1 in 6 chance you don't shoot, and if you're near a board edge, that's an additional 50% chance of not shooting in the following turn. That's before ever rolling artillery dice. Congratulations: your warmachine is twice as likely to misfire as any other warmachine.


It's less than twice as likely. 30.5% as opposed to 16.67%. Still, your point is well taken.

I really like the daemon warmachine idea. The only official army book rules currently for chaos dwarves have them manning a daemonic machine. Running with that idea is good.

I think the daemonic warmachine should be:
Just like the hell cannon. Just spell it out, with the clarifications from the warriors of chaos FAQ.

Daemonic machines would be: Eruption Gun, Death Rocket, Earth Shaker, Hell Cannon.
Maybe add the Kollosus to the list as well.

Add fluff to Inferno Golems and that bull centaur chariot where they are powered by souls (though no other game effect).


I like the imagery of chaos dwaves as hell-smiths.
Fluff like:
The forges are stoked with souls, producing an intense hellfire for the crafting of these devices. So hot is the flame that they must be quenched in blood. The souls bind with the metals, warping them. Even after these machines are shattered, faint screaming can be heard from the fragments. While whole, these daemon devices shudder and twist; trying to break free from the rune bonding that traps their spirit inside. Occasionally the souls are able to posses the machine and lash out at those nearby during a brief rampage.


-Matt

Re: 2250 v3 CD vs. O&G

PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:03 pm
by DarkbloodSkullpulper
Matt wrote:
I really like the daemon warmachine idea. The only official army book rules currently for chaos dwarves have them manning a daemonic machine. Running with that idea is good.

I think the daemonic warmachine should be:
Just like the hell cannon. Just spell it out, with the clarifications from the warriors of chaos FAQ.

Daemonic machines would be: Eruption Gun, Death Rocket, Earth Shaker, Hell Cannon.
Maybe add the Kollosus to the list as well.


I could get behind that. The "just like the Hellcannon" qualification is key, though. I'd be OK if the stats were shifted about, but unbreakable is a must.

Re: 2250 v3 CD vs. O&G

PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:39 pm
by Hashuts Scion
If we go that route, a decision needs to be made: do the daemonic engines get progressively stronger and more powerful as we move from eruption gun to Hellcannon, or are they effects static? (After all, a daemon is a daemon). I'm leaning to the former with a minimum level of power that all daemonic engines have. For example, in the old Storm of Chaos, the HC had a ward save where in WoC it doesn't. Thus, none of ours shouldn't (unless we go with the idea that we sell our inferior merchandise, keeping the best for us).

Comments? (Should we start a seperate thread regarding this?

Bob