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2250 v3 CD vs. O&G

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:18 am
by DarkbloodSkullpulper
Played against a horde O&G list, took a list more for testing than for synergy, and it showed.
Testing certain unit combos, but also wanted to see if a moderate magic list could work. Four bound spells seemed like it could provide some benefit without the list being dependent on it.

I used DE rules where 2nd round is initiative order hits, blunderbuss rules where one enemy unit in range has all models hit on a 4+, took a10 man unit of hobo archers, gave dispel scroll options to the daemonsmiths, and lowered the cost on the OG and gave them KB instead of fear.

I took:
10 hobgoblin archers
2x 17 Annihilators, no command
16 Chaos Dwarf Warriors, champ & banner, bound magic missile banner
15 Obsidian guard, full command, extra move banner
2x daemoneaters
Bolt thrower
Kolossus
3x Obsidian Golems, w/bound gunnery option
Overlord w/ ASF magic GW, Armor of Gazarkh for +1 SV
Slavemaster BSB w/ Armor of Stone for a T6
Daemonsmith w/ 25 point firestones (d. scroll) plus Hailfire gun
Daemonsmith w/ 25 point firestones plus Helm of Azgorh

Facing:
2x ~25 night goblins (one w/ 3 fanatcis)
~25 orcs w/ hw/shield
~25 big uns w/ banner of rank bonus free dispel dice
12 black orcs
4x 5 wolves
5x squig hoppers
2x bolt throwers
Boar chariot
Pump wagon
Giant
Black Orc warlord w. shaggas's screaming sword and armor of T6
Black orc BSB w/ +1ws & S item, not sure what else
Orc shaman w/ scroll
Goblin shaman w/ scroll

Lots more drops for him than me, and so I was pretty much set up before he committed much of anything. OG and warriors took the center, with one blunderbusses well hidden behind and the other staggered to the side and back. Golems and a daemoneater took one flank, and the kolossus and a daemoneater took the other. I put the daemonsmith w/ hailfire gun in the partially exposed blunderbuss unit, and the remaining 3 heroes all went into the warrior unit.
Facing me, night goblins were on each far flank, with biguns, orcs, and black orcs in the center, the giant, chariot, and squig hoppers all stacked the flank away from the kolossus. One shaman went in each NG unit, and the Warlord and BSB went into the central unit of boyz.

Highlights:
Orcs had remarkably little animosity, stranding a single NG unit in place for most of the game, and it wasn't the one with fanatics. The Waagh also gave great results, getting the Warlord's unit into my CD warriors and the Big uns into the OG after each had only taken a single round of blunderbuss shots. I completely forgot to use the Hailfire gun.

Magic was completely ineffective on both sides. 5 DD plus two scrolls is pretty decent magic D, but 7DD and 2 scrolls is even better. If there was one more bound item that did direct damage in the CD list, a moderate magic build would be even more feasible. Not that it would have been likelyt to work in this case, but against a list with only 4 or 5 DD, 5 bounds should let some spells actually get through.

The craziest scrum came when squig hoppers came up short of bouncing onto the golems, and then had to take a combo charge from the golems and daemoneater, which then both proceeded to overrun into the giant (down to 3 wounds due to a nice bolt thrower shot). On the O&G Waagh, the black orcs and orc chariot also came in, so 4 units out of 5 counted as charging. Orcs won by 1 on the first round, but the giant died, so on the next turn the chariot and BO both had to break from being outnumbered by fear-causers when it was their turn to lose by 1.

The game was decided by the Screaming sword - I probably should have seen it coming and spaced the characters more, but I was really thinking the warrior unt would be my steadfast center. 8 attacks at S9 and WS 7 can put out some hurt. When combat came, the O&G player didn't challenge because he didnt want to risk missing a chance to smack my characters around with his warlord, and I didn't want to challenge with my general or BSB, because it would either mean no chance to take out the Warlord with my ASF item if someone else took it, or else give the Warlord big overkill against the BSB. So, I challenged with teh Smith, who not only whiffed against the orc unit champ but also took a wound from him. I had a chance with 4 S7 ASF attacks, but only 2 got through. O&G ended up winning by 5, killed my BSB, so I had one chance on a 5 to stay around. Didnt make it and got run down. Pursuit clipped an Annihilator unit, and it was pretty much over by then.

While the golem flank did great, the kolossus flank did not. 3 of the 4 wolf units and the pump wagon kept getting in the way, and though I forced lots of phlegm tests, panic from bluderbuss shots, and terror checks, in the end, a unit of wolf riders got off a flank charge to pin the kolossus in place until a ranked NG unit could get in and keep it locked for the rest of the battle - I was lucky the kolossus never broke from that. I broke from my plan of using the Kollosus and DE in conjunction, and had to send the daemoneater on that flank over to help the OG because they were so badly outnumbered by the Biguns and there was no other help to be had. I tell you what, 10 GW attacks rather than 10 hw attacks from the crew would have made a huge difference...

I think that if I had built a bit more mobility into my list, I probably could have dictated the terms of engagement better, and not let myself get steamrolled up the middle and constantly hectored on the Kolossus flank. Feels like a good playable list - and if I had kept it to 1 strong flank rather than 2, I could see this being a fun tactical choice.

Re: 2250 v3 CD vs. O&G

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:02 am
by Hashuts Scion
Darkbloodskullpepper wrote:
Magic was completely ineffective on both sides. 5 DD plus two scrolls is pretty decent magic D, but 7DD and 2 scrolls is even better. If there was one more bound item that did direct damage in the CD list, a moderate magic build would be even more feasible. Not that it would have been likelyt to work in this case, but against a list with only 4 or 5 DD, 5 bounds should let some spells actually get through.


I agree with the number of bound items in the list. There are some armies with less, but then those armies can bring an all mage character list with all its advantages/disadvantages. With the Firestones of Uzkul being for all intents and purposes, dispel scrolls at the same cost, we do have them. But our list currently has 35 items. Only O&G, TK, and OK have less. Most have between 41-50 and three are over that.

Re: 2250 v3 CD vs. O&G

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:05 pm
by DarkbloodSkullpulper
Oh, and some feedback from my opponent:
- He felt that if the daemoneaters still had impact hits in rounds after charging, the unit would be "broken"
- He thought the 1+ save for Kolossus crew was too good. As he put it, "What are they doing, poking sticks out through the bars of their cage?"
- He was very happy not to see RH earthshakers in my list, because he really really hates them. He's biased, though for good reason, since he's played me a couple of times before when I took 2x RH earthshakers.
- He was hesitant about the idea of facing a list he'd never seen before in an actual tournament situation, and thought that it might not sit well with people who pay relatively big bucks to go play in a big indie.
- Overall, liked the list, but is worried about what a real gunline could do. (probably still gunshy from the old earthshakers)

Re: 2250 v3 CD vs. O&G

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:48 pm
by Larro
- He felt that if the daemoneaters still had impact hits in rounds after charging, the unit would be "broken"


Clearly he hasn't played against Chaos Warrior Chariots, which put out 4 S5 attacks and 2 S4 attacks PER TURN at much better Initiative than the stupid Demoneater does, and which also have a 4th wound and great WS for good measure. D3+1 impact hits, in non-Init order, is really just about as good as they are, with lower potential on average. It's really not a big deal.

- He thought the 1+ save for Kolossus crew was too good. As he put it, "What are they doing, poking sticks out through the bars of their cage?"


What about Skinks on a Stegadon getting a 2+? A 2+ would work for these guys if a 1+ was thought to be too extreme, but really, after the initial charge, the Kolossus does nothing but put out S3 hits.

- He was hesitant about the idea of facing a list he'd never seen before in an actual tournament situation, and thought that it might not sit well with people who pay relatively big bucks to go play in a big indie.


I think we all agree with this sentiment, but that's the nature of the beast if you're going to take on this type of project.

- Larry

Re: 2250 v3 CD vs. O&G

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 12:37 am
by DarkbloodSkullpulper
Larro wrote:
- He felt that if the daemoneaters still had impact hits in rounds after charging, the unit would be "broken"


Clearly he hasn't played against Chaos Warrior Chariots, which put out 4 S5 attacks and 2 S4 attacks PER TURN at much better Initiative than the stupid Demoneater does, and which also have a 4th wound and great WS for good measure. D3+1 impact hits, in non-Init order, is really just about as good as they are, with lower potential on average. It's really not a big deal.


I meant normal (d3+2) impact hits, out of initiative order, as in the previous rules versions. I was explaining some of the deviations the list has gone through. He didn't have a problem with the rule as it stands, and it seemed to play out fine.

Re: 2250 v3 CD vs. O&G

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:28 am
by Larro
Ah I see. Yes, it's obviously better to have continuous impact hits, and I'm all for the strike-in-initiative order we've got under "V3.5", but it's not like impact hits beyond charging are unheard of - see, Mr. Stank.

- Larry

Re: 2250 v3 CD vs. O&G

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:56 pm
by Matt
Larro wrote:Ah I see. Yes, it's obviously better to have continuous impact hits, and I'm all for the strike-in-initiative order we've got under "V3.5", but it's not like impact hits beyond charging are unheard of - see, Mr. Stank.
- Larry


Any other examples?
The Steam Tank also only gets to fight in every other round of combat, and is auto hit in combat, cannot not pursue... and so on.

As game mechanics go, the chaos dwarf "Chariot" isn't like the empire steam "War Machine".

-Matt

Re: 2250 v3 CD vs. O&G

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:58 am
by Larro
And a Demoneater isn't half of what a Steamtank is, so I fail to see your point. The Steamtanks limitations are a function of its game-breaking potential, at T6 with 10W and a 1+ Save, as well as a mobile Terror causer and Rank Breaker. That's why it can't pursue. That's why it fights only every other turn. As it stands, far too many people with their heads up their asses think the Stank is some uber-broken creation. These limitations balance it.

Now once again, you may not like the "mechanic" of autohitting at Initiative, but a Chaos Warrior Chariot scores roughly the same number of hits at equal strength, + has 2 S4 horse attacks for good measure, with a 4th wound, superior defensive WS, better Init, and rerollable Panic - all for 130 pts. If you're trying to say you'd want the Centaur to have those stats instead, then fine. I've been saying all along this thing in the ultra-simple version should just be a Chaos Warrior chariot equivalent, and for fairness, should be moved to the RARE slot (Dwarfs w/ chariots shouldn't be a super common occurence), but the powers that be feel this is better served as a Special, and to work uniquely.

Really, if you can't understand "auto-hits" you probably shouldn't be playing a game filled with things like sliding/no sliding, clipping, tactical wheeling, and enemy in the way, as these are much more "difficult" to understand than a simple attack that strikes in initiative order, but simply doesn't roll to hit.

- Larry

Re: 2250 v3 CD vs. O&G

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:29 am
by Guy In Suit
Um... stanks are pretty bent... Make me a list without a stank that you can legitimately say is stronger than the same list with a stank.

Comparing things to steam tanks won't win any friends.

Re: 2250 v3 CD vs. O&G

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:36 am
by Larro
I don't see where I'm comparing anything to a Stank. The comparison was very narrowly limited to the manner in which they fight - i.e., autohitting.

As for any Empire list being better with a Stank vs. without one, that's a ridiculous way of looking at it. Every army has something that they're clearly better with than without - VC armies are better with Wraiths vs. without, Demons are better with Flamers than without, WE armies are better with a Treeman than without, TK armies are better with a SSC than without, DE armies are better with a Hydra than without. What's the point exactly?

- Larry